Darko Bulatovic wrote:
Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Darko Bulatovic schreef:
Yann Forget wrote:
Hi,
Some wikis are plagued with vandalism, spams and non sense. Moldavan
Wikipedia seems the worst at this time, but there have been others too.
These projects do not bring any free knowledge to anybody, just a lot of
works for volunteers (hopefully there are great volunteers like Pill)
and stewards.
Regarding the Moldavan Wikipedia (
http://mo.wikipedia.org), the
administrators election was already cancelled twice because of massive
attacks. Sincere editors have been discouraged and have left. So the
wiki is just a battle field for vandals, trolls and sockpuppets. There
is no expected improvement in the near future because the language
itself is in the middle of a political controversy.
I forsee the same situation for the Montenegrin Wikipedia if it is
created. These wikis only give a bad image of Wikimedia. I think that
the Foundation should take its responsibilities and take some decisions.
Regards,
Yann
I cant believe my eyes that you Yann say this. How in the God sake you
can forsee such thing about Montenegrin wikipedia? Montenegrin wikipedia
gives bad image of Wikimedia? This statement that you did give bad image
to WMF. You don't have any argument to say this and to support your
statement.
Please elaborate this on Montenegrin request for Wikipedia.
Wikipedia is multilingual and multicultural project, without that WMF
don't have right to use that statement. What was done with Montenegrin
request is just showing what kind of lobbying is possible on WMF.
Regards,
Darko bulatovic
President of IT Association of Montenegro
Hoi,
Wikipedia is in its manifestations very much a multilingual project and
very much not a multicultural project. Cultural and political reasons
are not a reason to start another project. When you read the article
about Montenegrin, the language on the English Wikipedia, it explains
quite clearly that elements that are to make Montegrin special can be
found outside of Montenegro as well. This means that from a linguistic
point of view the case for a Montenegrin Wikipedia is pretty weak.
There are languages where the cultural and political differences are
quite big while there is no call for a split project. The Chinese and
the Dutch wikipedias are good examples for this. It would be a good
thing if you could find it in you to consider this and retract the
application for a Montenegrin Wikipedia.
Thanks,
GerardM
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Gerard,
I don't understand why you mis interpret my statement. Please notice
"and". Who advice you on this meter? Political background of languages
is undiscussable . There must be political background of language, as
there must be political will to make standard from people language.
Linguistics rules are just political will on people language. If you
ignore this your opinion will not be righteous. I will repeat my sentence:
- Wikipedia is multilingual and multicultural project.
Being multilingual and multicultural does not mean that each language
needs its own Bantustan. South Africa already showed us that apartheid
was a bankrupt system. Post-colonial Africa had to accept that
abandoning colonial boundaries in favour of a return to tribal areas
would be a recipe for chaos.
To say that languages must be driven by politics is absurd. Generally
it works the other way. Tribes develop their own way of talking, and
use that as an excuse for making politics.
As I sad, culture is connected with language, and
culture is spread by
communication, beside other ways of communication language is primary one.
Culture is absolutely connected with language. But a special language
in a closed circle prevents the culture from being spread to any but
those who already know the language.
.When you read
the article
about Montenegrin, the language on the English Wikipedia, it explains
quite clearly that elements that are to make Montegrin special can be
found outside of Montenegro as well.
Do you know what you talk about? Do you know who write those articles?
Do you know anything about specifics of Montenegrin dialect of south
slavenian languages?
I'm glad you use the word "dialect". If you and a Serb speak with
each
other (preferably about a neutral topic) in your own dialects you each
should be able to understand most of what the other is saying. Thus
they are dialects of the same language. If you can't understand each
other they are different languages.
Split of project is not our concern (As Montenegrin
people are never
participated on this projects or they tried on marginal level), you know
well why is was divided on Balkan, but you stay quiet on this. Special
regarding Serbian. Wikipedia is used for spreading of nationalism and
now when Montenegrin wish to have their own wikipedia on their own
language, it become problem. AND yes it become POLITICAL problem for WMF
or one part of their members. I am aware that Serbian community is very
strong on WMF. But to this aspect of discussion is not place here. My
question is what argument do you have on this? Did you check them or you
just used POV to discuss on this topic?
Using Wikipedia to spread nationalism is absolutely contrary to a
Neutral Point of View. Wikipedia did start in the United States, but if
the Americans who were involved at the earliest stages had insisted that
Wikipedia was there to promote US nationalism it would have failed
miserably in all other English-speaking countries.
Personally, I don't think that there should ever have been separate
Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian wikipedias. If any of them are using
their respective projects to spread their own nationalism that is
wrong. As long as they have their own wikis nobody from within the
Yugoslav communities will be willing to seriously criticise them for it,
and nobody from outside the Yugoslav communities will understand the
language enough to be able to do it.
I can understand that Montenegrins can feel prejudiced when the same
mistake is not made for them as was made for the Serbians.
Please, English is not my native language, and I
don't see how you could
miss interpret my statement about multilingual and multi cultural nature
of wikipedia. Every language bring up cultural aspect and I don't see
how you could by-pass this.
Your use of English may have a few errors, but not enough to comment
about, or to leave the impression that you are not making sense.
(Neither Gerrard nor Yann are native English speakers.) My own view of
multiculturalism is typically Canadian, and that involves appreciating
that a country is made up of many cultures that bring a rich diversity
into a country.
And again please return to the topic explain to me how
you can be that
CLAIRVOYANCE and assume that Montenegrin wikipedia will bring such bad
image to WMF . You don't have arguments for that. This is just showing
to me that you take POV. You just assume this with (for me) no
particular reason. So I can just guess here why you are doing this.
Please be more specific about your goals here, so I don't assume that
you just take POV here.
I don't think that bringing a bad image is a factor. It's a broader
question of linguistics.
I am ready to participate on any level of discussion
but please don't
make assumptions as that will bring bad connotation to your willingness
to do right thing in this case.
The only assumption there is that what you want is the right thing.
There is another alternative. Start using the serbo-croatian (sh)
Wikipedia. It was the original Yugoslav project, and is still alive and
well.
Ec