I'd like to second what Rob has expressed here. This list already suffers a
very poor reputation within our community, even as it is positioned as an
important part of our communications ecosystem.
Allowing participants to intimidate others and exact "in real life"
consequences should be dealt with in the most severe manner. If we do
not meatball:DefendEachOther, and deliver the basic safety needs of the
list membership, how can we in good conscience keep this list running and
encourage participation?
-Andrew
On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 12:12 PM, Robert Fernandez <wikigamaliel(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
I am grateful that the moderators have taken some
action, but I am
disappointed that contacting a person's employer is not yet seen as an
uncrossable line here.
Out of respect to your call for civility I will refrain from directly
responding to the person in question despite his allegations against me.
It is a mistake to frame this as a free speech issue. It is of course in
the interests of a person engaging in bullying and harassing behavior to
claim people are trying to suppress their powerful truths, but there is no
reason we have to accept this duplicitous framing. The content of the
message is immaterial, the behavior is the issue. Some people may see this
as a grey area given that it was a Foundation employee, but I see it as a
slippery slope. Seddon's job is almost certainly safe, but this might not
be the case for the next victim. Will the poster in question decide that I
am "bullying and harassing" him and attempt to contact my employer next?
Most of my fellow board members of my chapter are the employees of US
government agencies or connected to the Foundation as an employee or a
grant recipient. Given the unusual political climate in the US I worry
that the former group are particularly vulnerable to harassment targeting
their employment. (Media outlets favored by the current US presidential
administration have targeted individual Wikimedia editors, including
myself, in the past.) If participants on this list are allowed to engage
in this sort of harassment without real consequence, I will advise that my
chapter and its board members and volunteers no longer participate on this
list due to the risk to their livelihoods.
On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 5:45 AM, Shani Evenstein <shani.even(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Dear Wikimedia-l,
Rogol has been placed under moderation, but at this point no decision has
been made to ban him from the list. As long as his messages are
reasonable,
respectful and on point, his messages will go
through. We agreed that it
is
important to allow a diversity of voices to be
heard, including those of
"frequent flyers" in the list, especially as we work collaboratively on
next steps towards a healthier community atmosphere.
In addition, we are asking everyone to refrain from focusing on specific
individuals posting to the list, put any personal issues aside and stay
on
problem. We want as many people as possible to
productively and
objectively
participate in the discussion, till we draft
clearer guidelines for
posting
to the list. We are aware that these guidelines
will not automagically
fix
all of our issues as a global community, but we
believe they will help
reduce the noise substantially. Do keep on debating. We are trying to
intervene as little as possible at this point and let the debate run its
course.
Best,
Shani Evenstein, on behalf of the Wikimedia-l Admins.
On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 8:52 PM, James Salsman <jsalsman(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> Why are we having this RFC prior to the survey which was discussed at
> length less than a year ago?
>
>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:James_Salsman#Peri
> odic_survey_prototype
>
> On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Robert Fernandez
> <wikigamaliel(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > Since Rogol has followed through on his threat he should be banned
from
> the
> > list, or we should have a public statement from the moderators
regarding
why they will not do so.
I can't imagine many actions that would have a more chilling effect on
participation here than one of this list's most frequent posters
contacting
> your employer because he disagrees with what you have to say.
>
> On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 7:57 AM, Joseph Seddon <jseddon(a)wikimedia.org
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Since you kindly emailed my line manage Rogol, I wanted to confirm
> that my
> >> choice of words were very carefully chosen.
> >>
> >> And I stand by them.
> >>
> >> Seddon
> >>
> >> On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 8:25 PM, Rogol Domedonfors <
> domedonfors(a)gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Joseph
> >> >
> >> > I chose my wording quite carefully, and suggest that you do so too.
> I
> >> said
> >> > that the proposal "involves", not "is equal to"
real-life identity
> To
> >> the
> >> > extent that real-life identities are involved, it is reasonable to
> ask
> >> how
> >> > that personal information is going to be handled. For some reason,
> you
> >> > seem keen to derail that part of the discussion by elevating a
> quibble
> >> over
> >> > your hasty misunderstanding of my wording into an accusation,
which I
> >> > reject, of generalised
misconduct. If you have some comment to
make
> >> about
> >> > the handling of personal information, please do so.
> >> >
> >> > May I suggest that you withdraw your original posting, apologise to
> the
> >> > membership of this list for the unconstructive nature of your
> posting,
> >> and
> >> > to me for its aggressive, insulting and incorrect content.
> >> Alternatively,
> >> > perhaps you would prefer me to ask your line manager whether this
is
> the
> >> > sort of behaviour that she expects you to exhibit in a public
forum.
> >> >
> >> > Reginald
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 8:07 PM, Joseph Seddon <
> jseddon(a)wikimedia.org>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Real identity does not equal real-life identity. You can mask
your
> >> > > pseudonymous identity and
pose as a third party similarly
> pseudonymous
> >> > > individual.
> >> > >
> >> > >
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet)
> >> > >
> >> > > Seddon
> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> >> > > Unsubscribe:
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> ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsu
> bscribe>
> >> > >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Seddon
> >>
> >> *Advancement Associate (Community Engagement)*
> >> *Wikimedia Foundation*
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> >>
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