We talked Dec 29 about a Commons-focused event for Wikimedia Day (January 15), and I emailed Peaceray about the work I've been doing there that I'd love to have more people involved with, but if any announcement has gone out, I haven't seen it. On https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Day it says "Seattle" but has no further details. This is only 9 days away. **Do we have a time & location? *Did something go out that I missed? Is something posted that I can't find? * Here is what I passed on to Peaceray; sorry about the referring to myself in the third person, I was expecting he would post this somewhere, so I worded it that way. Also, I now have done a bunch of the panoramas referred to below: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Jmabel/Archival#Archival_panoramas . Currently, Wikimedia Commons has a lot of older photos by Asahel Curtis and (intersecting that) a lot of older photos of Seattle that need more curation: creation and addition of categories, addition of ImageNotes where useful, linking other versions of the same photo, enhancing the descriptions (e.g. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:E_F_Blaine_residence,_40th_Ave_E_an… is a 1910 photo of the house now best known as where Kurt Cobain lived at the end of his life, and where he killed himself), and in some cases identifying and correcting errors (Jmabel has caught out a lot of wrong dates, misidentified buildings, etc.). Many of these photos are directly in https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Seattle or https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Alaska-Yukon-Pacific_Exposition and really belong in subcategories; others are in the maintenance categories https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Images_from_the_Alaska-Yukon-Pa… or https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Images_from_the_Asahel_Curtis_P… . There are probably many other images needing similar work, but these are a few obvious places to look. Also, in a few cases, Curtis or someone else in that era shot images that constitute a panorama, but no one has ever "stitched" and uploaded the panorama. Typical examples of this work are: * https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:4th_St,_south_from_Spr… * https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:1st_Ave_from_Columbia_… * https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Fairy_Gorge_Tickler_am… JM _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-Cascadia mailing list Wikimedia-Cascadia(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-cascadia

If the Cascadia team can post a time and location (and a meetup page) quickly, I can promote your event via centralnotice over the next 7 days

Washington/Oregon. Thanks, Pharos On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 1:45 PM Joe Mabel <jmabel(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: > We talked Dec 29 about a Commons-focused event for Wikimedia Day > (January 15), and I emailed Peaceray about the work I've been doing > there that I'd love to have more people involved with, but if any > announcement has gone out, I haven't seen it. On > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Day it says

> but has no further details. This is only 9 days away. > > **Do we have a time & location? *Did something go out that I missed? Is > something posted that I can't find? > * > > Here is what I passed on to Peaceray; sorry about the referring to > myself in the third person, I was expecting he would post this > somewhere, so I worded it that way. Also, I now have done a bunch of

> . > > Currently, Wikimedia Commons has a lot of older photos by Asahel > Curtis and (intersecting that) a lot of older photos of Seattle

> need more curation: creation and addition of categories, addition

> . > There are probably many other images needing similar work, but

> are a few obvious places to look. Also, in a few cases, Curtis or > someone else in that era shot images that constitute a panorama,

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Thanks, can you create and Eventbrite or other off-wiki page where non-editors can register? Since this would be on a banner visible to a broad group. Also, I think maybe if you could put in more of an introductory

that could help explain what the Cascadia Wikimedians and Wikipedia Day

to new people. Best, Pharos On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 3:13 AM Raymond Leonard < raymond.f.leonard.jr(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > Pharos, > > We added the time & location to > >

> > Peaceray > > On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 6:01 PM Pharos &lt;pharosofalexandria(a)gmail.com&gt; > wrote: > >> If the Cascadia team can post a time and location (and a meetup page) >> quickly, I can promote your event via centralnotice over the next 7

> in >> Washington/Oregon. >> >> Thanks, >> Pharos >> >> On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 1:45 PM Joe Mabel &lt;jmabel(a)speakeasy.net&gt; wrote: >> >>> We talked Dec 29 about a Commons-focused event for Wikimedia Day >>> (January 15), and I emailed Peaceray about the work I've been doing >>> there that I'd love to have more people involved with, but if any >>> announcement has gone out, I haven't seen it. On >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Day it says > "Seattle" >>> but has no further details. This is only 9 days away. >>> >>> **Do we have a time & location? *Did something go out that I missed?

>>> something posted that I can't find? >>> * >>> >>> Here is what I passed on to Peaceray; sorry about the referring to >>> myself in the third person, I was expecting he would post this >>> somewhere, so I worded it that way. Also, I now have done a bunch of > the >>> panoramas referred to below: >>> >

>>> . >>> >>> Currently, Wikimedia Commons has a lot of older photos by Asahel >>> Curtis and (intersecting that) a lot of older photos of Seattle > that >>> need more curation: creation and addition of categories, addition > of >>> ImageNotes where useful, linking other versions of the same

>>> enhancing the descriptions (e.g. >>> >>> >

>>> is a 1910 photo of the house now best known as where Kurt Cobain >>> lived at the end of his life, and where he killed himself), and

>>> some cases identifying and correcting errors (Jmabel has caught

>>> a lot of wrong dates, misidentified buildings, etc.). >>> >>> Many of these photos are directly in >>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Seattle or >>> >>> >

>>> and really belong in subcategories; others are in the maintenance >>> categories >>> >>> >

>>> or >>> >>> >

>>> . >>> There are probably many other images needing similar work, but > these >>> are a few obvious places to look. Also, in a few cases, Curtis or >>> someone else in that era shot images that constitute a panorama, > but >>> no one has ever "stitched" and uploaded the panorama. >>> >>> Typical examples of this work are: >>> >>> * >>> >

>>> * >>> >

>>> * >>> >

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I will work on that today, On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 9:37 AM Joe Mabel &lt;jmabel(a)speakeasy.net&gt; wrote: > I just added an intro. Peaceray, can you please take on the Eventbrite > or other off-wiki page? Thanks. > > JM > > On 1/8/2019 9:17 AM, Pharos wrote: > > Thanks, can you create and Eventbrite or other off-wiki page where > > non-editors can register? Since this would be on a banner visible to

> > broad group. > > > > Also, I think maybe if you could put in more of an introductory > paragraph, > > that could help explain what the Cascadia Wikimedians and Wikipedia

> are > > to new people. > > > > Best, > > Pharos > > > > On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 3:13 AM Raymond Leonard < > > raymond.f.leonard.jr(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > > > >> Pharos, > >> > >> We added the time & location to > >> > >> >

> >> > >> Peaceray > >> > >> On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 6:01 PM Pharos &lt;pharosofalexandria(a)gmail.com&gt; > >> wrote: > >> > >>> If the Cascadia team can post a time and location (and a meetup

> >>> quickly, I can promote your event via centralnotice over the next 7 > days > >> in > >>> Washington/Oregon. > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Pharos > >>> > >>> On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 1:45 PM Joe Mabel &lt;jmabel(a)speakeasy.net&gt; > wrote: > >>> > >>>> We talked Dec 29 about a Commons-focused event for Wikimedia Day > >>>> (January 15), and I emailed Peaceray about the work I've been doing > >>>> there that I'd love to have more people involved with, but if any > >>>> announcement has gone out, I haven't seen it. On > >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Day it says > >> "Seattle" > >>>> but has no further details. This is only 9 days away. > >>>> > >>>> **Do we have a time & location? *Did something go out that I

> Is > >>>> something posted that I can't find? > >>>> * > >>>> > >>>> Here is what I passed on to Peaceray; sorry about the referring to > >>>> myself in the third person, I was expecting he would post this > >>>> somewhere, so I worded it that way. Also, I now have done a bunch

> >> the > >>>> panoramas referred to below: > >>>> > >> >

> >>>> . > >>>> > >>>> Currently, Wikimedia Commons has a lot of older photos by

> >>>> Curtis and (intersecting that) a lot of older photos of

> >> that > >>>> need more curation: creation and addition of categories, > addition > >> of > >>>> ImageNotes where useful, linking other versions of the same > photo, > >>>> enhancing the descriptions (e.g. > >>>> > >>>> > >> >

> >>>> is a 1910 photo of the house now best known as where Kurt

> >>>> lived at the end of his life, and where he killed himself),

> in > >>>> some cases identifying and correcting errors (Jmabel has

> out > >>>> a lot of wrong dates, misidentified buildings, etc.). > >>>> > >>>> Many of these photos are directly in > >>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Seattle or > >>>> > >>>> > >> >

> >>>> and really belong in subcategories; others are in the > maintenance > >>>> categories > >>>> > >>>> > >> >

> >>>> or > >>>> > >>>> > >> >

> >>>> . > >>>> There are probably many other images needing similar work, but > >> these > >>>> are a few obvious places to look. Also, in a few cases, Curtis > or > >>>> someone else in that era shot images that constitute a

> >> but > >>>> no one has ever "stitched" and uploaded the panorama. > >>>> > >>>> Typical examples of this work are: > >>>> > >>>> * > >>>> > >> >

> >>>> * > >>>> > >> >

> >>>> * > >>>> > >> >

It should be live now or in a few minutes. The banner will show in Washington and Oregon, and display on ~1/3 of loaded pages. Thanks, Pharos On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 2:57 PM Raymond Leonard < raymond.f.leonard.jr(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > Everybody, > > Eventbrite: > >

> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/events/383235655566581/ > > On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 11:26 AM Raymond Leonard < > raymond.f.leonard.jr(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > > > I will work on that today, > > > > On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 9:37 AM Joe Mabel &lt;jmabel(a)speakeasy.net&gt;

> > > >> I just added an intro. Peaceray, can you please take on the

> >> or other off-wiki page? Thanks. > >> > >> JM > >> > >> On 1/8/2019 9:17 AM, Pharos wrote: > >> > Thanks, can you create and Eventbrite or other off-wiki page where > >> > non-editors can register? Since this would be on a banner visible > to a > >> > broad group. > >> > > >> > Also, I think maybe if you could put in more of an introductory > >> paragraph, > >> > that could help explain what the Cascadia Wikimedians and Wikipedia > Day > >> are > >> > to new people. > >> > > >> > Best, > >> > Pharos > >> > > >> > On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 3:13 AM Raymond Leonard < > >> > raymond.f.leonard.jr(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > >> > > >> >> Pharos, > >> >> > >> >> We added the time & location to > >> >> > >> >> > >> >

> >> >> > >> >> Peaceray > >> >> > >> >> On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 6:01 PM Pharos <

> > > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> If the Cascadia team can post a time and location (and a meetup > page) > >> >>> quickly, I can promote your event via centralnotice over the

> >> days > >> >> in > >> >>> Washington/Oregon. > >> >>> > >> >>> Thanks, > >> >>> Pharos > >> >>> > >> >>> On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 1:45 PM Joe Mabel &lt;jmabel(a)speakeasy.net&gt; > >> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>>> We talked Dec 29 about a Commons-focused event for Wikimedia Day > >> >>>> (January 15), and I emailed Peaceray about the work I've been > doing > >> >>>> there that I'd love to have more people involved with, but if

> >> >>>> announcement has gone out, I haven't seen it. On > >> >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Day it says > >> >> "Seattle" > >> >>>> but has no further details. This is only 9 days away. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> **Do we have a time & location? *Did something go out that I > missed? > >> Is > >> >>>> something posted that I can't find? > >> >>>> * > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Here is what I passed on to Peaceray; sorry about the referring

> >> >>>> myself in the third person, I was expecting he would post this > >> >>>> somewhere, so I worded it that way. Also, I now have done a

> of > >> >> the > >> >>>> panoramas referred to below: > >> >>>> > >> >> > >> >

> >> >>>> . > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Currently, Wikimedia Commons has a lot of older photos by > Asahel > >> >>>> Curtis and (intersecting that) a lot of older photos of > Seattle > >> >> that > >> >>>> need more curation: creation and addition of categories, > >> addition > >> >> of > >> >>>> ImageNotes where useful, linking other versions of the same > >> photo, > >> >>>> enhancing the descriptions (e.g. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >> > >> >

> >> >>>> is a 1910 photo of the house now best known as where Kurt > Cobain > >> >>>> lived at the end of his life, and where he killed himself), > and > >> in > >> >>>> some cases identifying and correcting errors (Jmabel has > caught > >> out > >> >>>> a lot of wrong dates, misidentified buildings, etc.). > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Many of these photos are directly in > >> >>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Seattle or > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >> > >> >

> >> >>>> and really belong in subcategories; others are in the > >> maintenance > >> >>>> categories > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >> > >> >

> >> >>>> or > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >> > >> >

> >> >>>> . > >> >>>> There are probably many other images needing similar work, > but > >> >> these > >> >>>> are a few obvious places to look. Also, in a few cases, > Curtis > >> or > >> >>>> someone else in that era shot images that constitute a > panorama, > >> >> but > >> >>>> no one has ever "stitched" and uploaded the panorama. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Typical examples of this work are: > >> >>>> > >> >>>> * > >> >>>> > >> >> > >> >

> >> >>>> * > >> >>>> > >> >> > >> >

> >> >>>> * > >> >>>> > >> >> > >> >

Unfortunately, I won't be able to make it down to the city tonight. I

a light headache that would definitely be aggravated by the trip. On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 3:06 PM Pharos &lt;pharosofalexandria(a)gmail.com&gt;

> Let me know if the banner is working for you? Just load a random page a

> times, like I said it should come up about 1/3 of the time. > > Thanks, > Pharos > > On Tue, Jan 8, 2019, 3:15 PM Pharos &lt;pharosofalexandria(a)gmail.com

> >> It should be live now or in a few minutes. The banner will show in >> Washington and Oregon, and display on ~1/3 of loaded pages. >> >> Thanks, >> Pharos >> >> On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 2:57 PM Raymond Leonard < >> raymond.f.leonard.jr(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >> >>> Everybody, >>> >>> Eventbrite: >>> >>> >

>>> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/events/383235655566581/ >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 11:26 AM Raymond Leonard < >>> raymond.f.leonard.jr(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>> >>>> I will work on that today, >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 9:37 AM Joe Mabel &lt;jmabel(a)speakeasy.net&gt; > wrote: >>>>> I just added an intro. Peaceray, can you please take on the > Eventbrite >>>>> or other off-wiki page? Thanks. >>>>> >>>>> JM >>>>> >>>>> On 1/8/2019 9:17 AM, Pharos wrote: >>>>>> Thanks, can you create and Eventbrite or other off-wiki page where >>>>>> non-editors can register? Since this would be on a banner visible >>> to a >>>>>> broad group. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, I think maybe if you could put in more of an introductory >>>>> paragraph, >>>>>> that could help explain what the Cascadia Wikimedians and Wikipedia >>> Day >>>>> are >>>>>> to new people. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Pharos >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 3:13 AM Raymond Leonard < >>>>>> raymond.f.leonard.jr(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Pharos, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We added the time & location to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >

>>>>>>> Peaceray >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 6:01 PM Pharos < > pharosofalexandria(a)gmail.com >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If the Cascadia team can post a time and location (and a meetup >>> page) >>>>>>>> quickly, I can promote your event via centralnotice over the > next 7 >>>>> days >>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> Washington/Oregon. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> Pharos >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 1:45 PM Joe Mabel &lt;jmabel(a)speakeasy.net&gt; >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> We talked Dec 29 about a Commons-focused event for Wikimedia Day >>>>>>>>> (January 15), and I emailed Peaceray about the work I've been >>> doing >>>>>>>>> there that I'd love to have more people involved with, but if > any >>>>>>>>> announcement has gone out, I haven't seen it. On >>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Day it says >>>>>>> "Seattle" >>>>>>>>> but has no further details. This is only 9 days away. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> **Do we have a time & location? *Did something go out that I >>> missed? >>>>> Is >>>>>>>>> something posted that I can't find? >>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Here is what I passed on to Peaceray; sorry about the referring > to >>>>>>>>> myself in the third person, I was expecting he would post this >>>>>>>>> somewhere, so I worded it that way. Also, I now have done a > bunch >>> of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> panoramas referred to below: >>>>>>>>> >

>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Currently, Wikimedia Commons has a lot of older photos by >>> Asahel >>>>>>>>> Curtis and (intersecting that) a lot of older photos of >>> Seattle >>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> need more curation: creation and addition of categories, >>>>> addition >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> ImageNotes where useful, linking other versions of the

>>>>> photo, >>>>>>>>> enhancing the descriptions (e.g. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >

>>>>>>>>> is a 1910 photo of the house now best known as where Kurt >>> Cobain >>>>>>>>> lived at the end of his life, and where he killed

>>> and >>>>> in >>>>>>>>> some cases identifying and correcting errors (Jmabel has >>> caught >>>>> out >>>>>>>>> a lot of wrong dates, misidentified buildings, etc.). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Many of these photos are directly in >>>>>>>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Seattle or >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >

>>>>>>>>> and really belong in subcategories; others are in the >>>>> maintenance >>>>>>>>> categories >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >

>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >

>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> There are probably many other images needing similar work, >>> but >>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>> are a few obvious places to look. Also, in a few cases, >>> Curtis >>>>> or >>>>>>>>> someone else in that era shot images that constitute a >>> panorama, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>> no one has ever "stitched" and uploaded the panorama. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Typical examples of this work are: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>> >

>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>> >

>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>> >

We talked Dec 29 about a Commons-focused event for Wikimedia Day (January 15), and I emailed Peaceray about the work I've been doing there that I'd love to have more people involved with, but if any announcement has gone out, I haven't seen it. On https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Day it says "Seattle" but has no further details. This is only 9 days away. **Do we have a time & location? *Did something go out that I missed? Is something posted that I can't find? * Here is what I passed on to Peaceray; sorry about the referring to myself in the third person, I was expecting he would post this somewhere, so I worded it that way. Also, I now have done a bunch of the panoramas referred to below: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Jmabel/Archival#Archival_panoramas . Currently, Wikimedia Commons has a lot of older photos by Asahel Curtis and (intersecting that) a lot of older photos of Seattle that need more curation: creation and addition of categories, addition of ImageNotes where useful, linking other versions of the same photo, enhancing the descriptions (e.g. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:E_F_Blaine_residence,_40th_Ave_E_an… is a 1910 photo of the house now best known as where Kurt Cobain lived at the end of his life, and where he killed himself), and in some cases identifying and correcting errors (Jmabel has caught out a lot of wrong dates, misidentified buildings, etc.). Many of these photos are directly in https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Seattle or https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Alaska-Yukon-Pacific_Exposition and really belong in subcategories; others are in the maintenance categories https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Images_from_the_Alaska-Yukon-Pa… or https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Images_from_the_Asahel_Curtis_P… . There are probably many other images needing similar work, but these are a few obvious places to look. Also, in a few cases, Curtis or someone else in that era shot images that constitute a panorama, but no one has ever "stitched" and uploaded the panorama. Typical examples of this work are: * https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:4th_St,_south_from_Spr… * https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:1st_Ave_from_Columbia_… * https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Fairy_Gorge_Tickler_am… JM _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-Cascadia mailing list Wikimedia-Cascadia(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-cascadia

I will go with whatever is convenient/available. I don't really have a preference of my own. JM On 1/6/2019 10:09 PM, Raymond Leonard wrote: > Joe & all, > > I would like to set a location. The Seattle Public Library meeting

Public are > more often booked & out of the way for mass transit. > > Is there anyone on this email list who has room reservation privileges

> UW Seattle? > > Alternately, we could just go to Cafe Allegro, which is open until 9pm

> edit from there using a hot spot, or find another suitable cafe. > > I think allowing three hours would be best. > > Yours, > Peaceray <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Peaceray> > > > > On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 10:45 AM Joe Mabel &lt;jmabel(a)speakeasy.net&gt;

> >> We talked Dec 29 about a Commons-focused event for Wikimedia Day >> (January 15), and I emailed Peaceray about the work I've been doing >> there that I'd love to have more people involved with, but if any >> announcement has gone out, I haven't seen it. On >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Day it says

>> but has no further details. This is only 9 days away. >> >> **Do we have a time & location? *Did something go out that I missed?

>> something posted that I can't find? >> * >> >> Here is what I passed on to Peaceray; sorry about the referring to >> myself in the third person, I was expecting he would post this >> somewhere, so I worded it that way. Also, I now have done a bunch of

that of >> ImageNotes where useful, linking other versions of the same

>> is a 1910 photo of the house now best known as where Kurt Cobain >> lived at the end of his life, and where he killed himself), and

>> some cases identifying and correcting errors (Jmabel has caught

these but

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