There have also been threads on Meta http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa However rather than rehashing the decision to hold Wikimania in Israel during Ramadan, or even trying to send out some last minute invitations, may I suggest that we start focussing in on some of the lessons to be learned from this? I'd particularly like to see a commitment that future Wikimanias won't clash with Ramadan or certain other "culturally sensitive" dates. It will be difficult to list which ones we can't clash with and which we can accommodate by having two hours break in a sports bar (Gdansk clashed with some sort of sporting event). But we should at least try. Oh and I think there is still time to get more virtual involvement. WereSpielChequers

On 20 July 2011 18:26, Nathan <nawrich(a)gmail.com> wrote: (I suspect WereSpielChequers knew it was the World Cup and was being facetious. ;-) ) I agree, avoiding Ramadan isn't really feasible. Wikimania is always held in the summer, and I don't think we should change that. Holding it in the summer but not in Ramadan gives us very little flexibility (at least for the next few years - as you say, Ramadan will have moved out of the usual Wikimania period after that). _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

We discussed that last year and someone came up with a sensible remark: If you are travelling during Ramadan, you are excempted from the fast.

Em 20/07/2011 14:38, Thomas Dalton escreveu: In the south hemisphere, the summer begins on December. Just a remark. Castelo

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Because... ?? xD REOPENED

Em 20/07/2011 21:25, James Hare escreveu: _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Yes, James, you're probably right. It was a joke, of course, but also a kind of invite to a reflexion. If we want to improve the participation of people from Middle East, Africa, India, Latin America, it doesn't make any sense to make choices thinking on what it's comfortable for all the rest, but not for them. Or even on what it's traditional. I think this is a real concern for strategy, and we can discuss it better for the next times. Wikimania shouldn't be held always in July or August. This is not the law, isn't written in stone. Before trying to change the world, we should be able to change ourselves. Just my two cents.

Castelo Em 20/07/2011 21:27, CasteloBranco escreveu: _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

The reason why I suggested that we make a commitment that "future Wikimanias won't clash with Ramadan or certain other "culturally sensitive" dates", Is that as Harel pointed out it isn't just Islam that has dates we should avoid (and I appreciate that Muslims are exempt from their fast on their way to and from Wikimania). I accept that it won't be easy to come up with dates that work for a culturally sensitive global organisation, and I'm aware that this isn't the first time we've clashed with Ramadan. Globalisation is hard, coming up with a midyear date that doesn't clash with anything we don't want to clash with will not be easy, but if we truly want to Globalise the pedia we should at least try to do this. I don't observe Ramadan, or watch sport, and I'm happy to eat pork. But if we want future Wikimanias to be open to a truly global community then I believe that we should aim for Gdansk to be the last Wikimania with Pork on the menu and Haifa the last that clashes with any major religious event (I have no objection to a two hour break for sports fans provided there is, as at Gdansk, an alternative for the sportsphobic amongst us). WereSpielChequers On 20 July 2011 22:41, Casey Brown <lists(a)caseybrown.org> wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

The problem with what you're proposing is that everyone has something they don't want to see, and sooner or later you'll annoy someone by omitting something they need. Case in point: the recent Chapters conference in Berlin was vegan food only, which clashed with my cultural requirement to have fish on a Friday. You simply can't make everyone happy. On 21 July 2011 22:22, WereSpielChequers <werespielchequers(a)gmail.com wrote: > The reason why I suggested that we make a commitment that "future > Wikimanias won't clash with Ramadan or certain other "culturally > sensitive" dates", Is that as Harel pointed out it isn't just Islam > that has dates we should avoid (and I appreciate that Muslims are > exempt from their fast on their way to and from Wikimania). I accept > that it won't be easy to come up with dates that work for a culturally > sensitive global organisation, and I'm aware that this isn't the first > time we've clashed with Ramadan. Globalisation is hard, coming up with > a midyear date that doesn't clash with anything we don't want to clash > with will not be easy, but if we truly want to Globalise the pedia we > should at least try to do this. > > I don't observe Ramadan, or watch sport, and I'm happy to eat pork. > But if we want future Wikimanias to be open to a truly global > community then I believe that we should aim for Gdansk to be the last > Wikimania with Pork on the menu and Haifa the last that clashes with > any major religious event (I have no objection to a two hour break for > sports fans provided there is, as at Gdansk, an alternative for the > sportsphobic amongst us). > > WereSpielChequers > > On 20 July 2011 22:41, Casey Brown <lists(a)caseybrown.org> wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Manuel Schneider > > <manuel.schneider(a)wikimedia.ch> wrote: > >> We discussed that last year and someone came up with a sensible

> >> > >> If you are travelling during Ramadan, you are excempted from the fast. > > > > It should also be noted that Wikimania 2009 also took place during > > Ramadan, and Wikimania 2012 will miss it by only a few days. > > > > There's also already a page on wikimania2011wiki directed at the > > Muslim Ramadan-observing Wikimaniacs that has been up for almost an > > entire year (August 2010!). > > <http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ramadan> > > > > Having Wikimania during Ramadan isn't a showstopper... they can still > > partake in all of the normal Wikimania activities, and this year's > > Wikimania has already made plans to support them. > > > > -- > > Casey Brown > > Cbrown1023 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimania-l mailing list > > Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l > > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimania-l mailing list > Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l >

I must agree with Craig here: that the chapters conference served only vegan food this year wasn't a popular decision among southeast Asian delegates either. You can't please everyone, and it is important to know whom to please. Avoiding Sabbath and Ramadan is probably a good culturally aware idea for a Wikimania in Israel; abstinence from pork for a Wikimania in Poland (there were vegetarian options) probably not. On Jul 21, 2011 8:27 PM, "Craig Franklin" &lt;craig(a)halo-17.net&gt; wrote: they remark: fast. _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Em 20/07/2011 14:38, Thomas Dalton escreveu: In the south hemisphere, the summer begins on December. Just a remark.