There have also been threads on Meta http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa
However rather than rehashing the decision to hold Wikimania in Israel during Ramadan, or even trying to send out some last minute invitations, may I suggest that we start focussing in on some of the lessons to be learned from this?
I'd particularly like to see a commitment that future Wikimanias won't clash with Ramadan or certain other "culturally sensitive" dates. It will be difficult to list which ones we can't clash with and which we can accommodate by having two hours break in a sports bar (Gdansk clashed with some sort of sporting event). But we should at least try.
Oh and I think there is still time to get more virtual involvement.
WereSpielChequers
On 20 July 2011 16:17, Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com wrote:
Most of them are in the archive of wikimania-l, some in the archive of foundation-l, and even fewer in the archive of wikimania-planning-l. The first two are publicly available. Simple Ctrl-Fing of the threads since about June 2010 will find most of the stuff if not all of it.
Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 local team
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 17:29, Kim Bruning kim@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 10:39:59PM +0300, Harel Cain wrote:
I think those numbers will be teaching, and will put this discussion in the true perspective it deserves.
Speaking of putting things in perspective, I've been told off-channel that there have been several previous debates on this topic.
For the record, could someone link me to (some of) these old debates? It's probably more efficient for me to RTFArchive and come back with any remaining questions.
sincerely, Kim Bruning -- [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment] gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72
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-- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
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On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 1:09 PM, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
There have also been threads on Meta http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa
However rather than rehashing the decision to hold Wikimania in Israel during Ramadan, or even trying to send out some last minute invitations, may I suggest that we start focussing in on some of the lessons to be learned from this?
I'd particularly like to see a commitment that future Wikimanias won't clash with Ramadan or certain other "culturally sensitive" dates. It will be difficult to list which ones we can't clash with and which we can accommodate by having two hours break in a sports bar (Gdansk clashed with some sort of sporting event). But we should at least try.
Oh and I think there is still time to get more virtual involvement.
WereSpielChequers
It was the World Cup. Like anything, decisions have to be made about which accommodations are reasonable and which are not. Ramadan for a Wikimania in the Middle East might make sense... Ramadan for a Wikimania in North America or Western Europe may not (it is, after all, not 2 hours but a full month). Wikimanias are typically held in July and August, and Ramadan will conflict with that timeframe for at least several more years.
On 20 July 2011 18:26, Nathan nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 1:09 PM, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
There have also been threads on Meta http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa
However rather than rehashing the decision to hold Wikimania in Israel during Ramadan, or even trying to send out some last minute invitations, may I suggest that we start focussing in on some of the lessons to be learned from this?
I'd particularly like to see a commitment that future Wikimanias won't clash with Ramadan or certain other "culturally sensitive" dates. It will be difficult to list which ones we can't clash with and which we can accommodate by having two hours break in a sports bar (Gdansk clashed with some sort of sporting event). But we should at least try.
Oh and I think there is still time to get more virtual involvement.
WereSpielChequers
It was the World Cup. Like anything, decisions have to be made about which accommodations are reasonable and which are not. Ramadan for a Wikimania in the Middle East might make sense... Ramadan for a Wikimania in North America or Western Europe may not (it is, after all, not 2 hours but a full month). Wikimanias are typically held in July and August, and Ramadan will conflict with that timeframe for at least several more years.
(I suspect WereSpielChequers knew it was the World Cup and was being facetious. ;-) )
I agree, avoiding Ramadan isn't really feasible. Wikimania is always held in the summer, and I don't think we should change that. Holding it in the summer but not in Ramadan gives us very little flexibility (at least for the next few years - as you say, Ramadan will have moved out of the usual Wikimania period after that).
While we're discussing cultural and religious difficulties, may I add the somewhat overlooked fact that the third day of the main conference falls on Saturday, the Jewish Shabbat, in which observant Jews are strongly restricted in everything they do and the vast majority of them would not even consider attending Wikimania on a Shabbat. See [1].
Many members of our local editor community (and a considerable percentage of the Israeli populace) are observant of the Shabbat.
An extra difficulty is that the dates for Wikimania 2011 fall on the Three Weeks and specifically on the Nine Days ([2], [3]), which are a period of mourning for the destruction of the Temple when many observant Jews take on various mourning practices and would be even more hesitant to attend, for example, the parties and festivities surrounding Wikimania.
We chose to hold the conference over this specific weekend to suit working people at home and abroad and various calendar constraints , but the difficulty poised by holding it on a Shabbat (and on the Nine Days) to our audience is much greater than holding it in Ramaddan, when people fast during daylight but normally go on about their lives as usual, at least to some extent.
Just my two cents,
Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 local team
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Days [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Weeks
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 20:38, Thomas Dalton thomas.dalton@gmail.comwrote:
On 20 July 2011 18:26, Nathan nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 1:09 PM, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
There have also been threads on Meta http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa
However rather than rehashing the decision to hold Wikimania in Israel during Ramadan, or even trying to send out some last minute invitations, may I suggest that we start focussing in on some of the lessons to be learned from this?
I'd particularly like to see a commitment that future Wikimanias won't clash with Ramadan or certain other "culturally sensitive" dates. It will be difficult to list which ones we can't clash with and which we can accommodate by having two hours break in a sports bar (Gdansk clashed with some sort of sporting event). But we should at least try.
Oh and I think there is still time to get more virtual involvement.
WereSpielChequers
It was the World Cup. Like anything, decisions have to be made about which accommodations are reasonable and which are not. Ramadan for a Wikimania in the Middle East might make sense... Ramadan for a Wikimania in North America or Western Europe may not (it is, after all, not 2 hours but a full month). Wikimanias are typically held in July and August, and Ramadan will conflict with that timeframe for at least several more years.
(I suspect WereSpielChequers knew it was the World Cup and was being facetious. ;-) )
I agree, avoiding Ramadan isn't really feasible. Wikimania is always held in the summer, and I don't think we should change that. Holding it in the summer but not in Ramadan gives us very little flexibility (at least for the next few years - as you say, Ramadan will have moved out of the usual Wikimania period after that).
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Am 20.07.2011 19:38, schrieb Thomas Dalton:
I agree, avoiding Ramadan isn't really feasible. Wikimania is always held in the summer, and I don't think we should change that. Holding it in the summer but not in Ramadan gives us very little flexibility (at least for the next few years - as you say, Ramadan will have moved out of the usual Wikimania period after that).
We discussed that last year and someone came up with a sensible remark:
If you are travelling during Ramadan, you are excempted from the fast.
/Manuel
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Manuel Schneider manuel.schneider@wikimedia.ch wrote:
We discussed that last year and someone came up with a sensible remark:
If you are travelling during Ramadan, you are excempted from the fast.
It should also be noted that Wikimania 2009 also took place during Ramadan, and Wikimania 2012 will miss it by only a few days.
There's also already a page on wikimania2011wiki directed at the Muslim Ramadan-observing Wikimaniacs that has been up for almost an entire year (August 2010!). http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ramadan
Having Wikimania during Ramadan isn't a showstopper... they can still partake in all of the normal Wikimania activities, and this year's Wikimania has already made plans to support them.
The reason why I suggested that we make a commitment that "future Wikimanias won't clash with Ramadan or certain other "culturally sensitive" dates", Is that as Harel pointed out it isn't just Islam that has dates we should avoid (and I appreciate that Muslims are exempt from their fast on their way to and from Wikimania). I accept that it won't be easy to come up with dates that work for a culturally sensitive global organisation, and I'm aware that this isn't the first time we've clashed with Ramadan. Globalisation is hard, coming up with a midyear date that doesn't clash with anything we don't want to clash with will not be easy, but if we truly want to Globalise the pedia we should at least try to do this.
I don't observe Ramadan, or watch sport, and I'm happy to eat pork. But if we want future Wikimanias to be open to a truly global community then I believe that we should aim for Gdansk to be the last Wikimania with Pork on the menu and Haifa the last that clashes with any major religious event (I have no objection to a two hour break for sports fans provided there is, as at Gdansk, an alternative for the sportsphobic amongst us).
WereSpielChequers
On 20 July 2011 22:41, Casey Brown lists@caseybrown.org wrote:
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Manuel Schneider manuel.schneider@wikimedia.ch wrote:
We discussed that last year and someone came up with a sensible remark:
If you are travelling during Ramadan, you are excempted from the fast.
It should also be noted that Wikimania 2009 also took place during Ramadan, and Wikimania 2012 will miss it by only a few days.
There's also already a page on wikimania2011wiki directed at the Muslim Ramadan-observing Wikimaniacs that has been up for almost an entire year (August 2010!). http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ramadan
Having Wikimania during Ramadan isn't a showstopper... they can still partake in all of the normal Wikimania activities, and this year's Wikimania has already made plans to support them.
-- Casey Brown Cbrown1023
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
The problem with what you're proposing is that everyone has something they don't want to see, and sooner or later you'll annoy someone by omitting something they need. Case in point: the recent Chapters conference in Berlin was vegan food only, which clashed with my cultural requirement to have fish on a Friday.
You simply can't make everyone happy.
On 21 July 2011 22:22, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.comwrote:
The reason why I suggested that we make a commitment that "future Wikimanias won't clash with Ramadan or certain other "culturally sensitive" dates", Is that as Harel pointed out it isn't just Islam that has dates we should avoid (and I appreciate that Muslims are exempt from their fast on their way to and from Wikimania). I accept that it won't be easy to come up with dates that work for a culturally sensitive global organisation, and I'm aware that this isn't the first time we've clashed with Ramadan. Globalisation is hard, coming up with a midyear date that doesn't clash with anything we don't want to clash with will not be easy, but if we truly want to Globalise the pedia we should at least try to do this.
I don't observe Ramadan, or watch sport, and I'm happy to eat pork. But if we want future Wikimanias to be open to a truly global community then I believe that we should aim for Gdansk to be the last Wikimania with Pork on the menu and Haifa the last that clashes with any major religious event (I have no objection to a two hour break for sports fans provided there is, as at Gdansk, an alternative for the sportsphobic amongst us).
WereSpielChequers
On 20 July 2011 22:41, Casey Brown lists@caseybrown.org wrote:
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Manuel Schneider manuel.schneider@wikimedia.ch wrote:
We discussed that last year and someone came up with a sensible remark:
If you are travelling during Ramadan, you are excempted from the fast.
It should also be noted that Wikimania 2009 also took place during Ramadan, and Wikimania 2012 will miss it by only a few days.
There's also already a page on wikimania2011wiki directed at the Muslim Ramadan-observing Wikimaniacs that has been up for almost an entire year (August 2010!). http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ramadan
Having Wikimania during Ramadan isn't a showstopper... they can still partake in all of the normal Wikimania activities, and this year's Wikimania has already made plans to support them.
-- Casey Brown Cbrown1023
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
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I have a somewhat different take on this. There's no reason to "annoy" anyone if people were not so inclined to be so outspokenly "annoyed" (and Wikimedians are world champions in this sport of being annoyed).
For example, observant Jews who eat kosher know full well that expecting kosher food in an international conference in a non-Jewish area is something they could only dream of, and so they make various makeshift solutions - they eat what they can (for example, fresh fruit and vegetables) and bring food with them from home (canned tuna, for example). The important fact is that they don't consider for a moment to be "annoyed" by the lack of kosher food. Keeping kosher is their own decision, and so it's their own problem, so to say, and they're perfectly content with it.
Harel
On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 15:27, Craig Franklin craig@halo-17.net wrote:
The problem with what you're proposing is that everyone has something they don't want to see, and sooner or later you'll annoy someone by omitting something they need. Case in point: the recent Chapters conference in Berlin was vegan food only, which clashed with my cultural requirement to have fish on a Friday.
You simply can't make everyone happy.
On 21 July 2011 22:22, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.comwrote:
The reason why I suggested that we make a commitment that "future Wikimanias won't clash with Ramadan or certain other "culturally sensitive" dates", Is that as Harel pointed out it isn't just Islam that has dates we should avoid (and I appreciate that Muslims are exempt from their fast on their way to and from Wikimania). I accept that it won't be easy to come up with dates that work for a culturally sensitive global organisation, and I'm aware that this isn't the first time we've clashed with Ramadan. Globalisation is hard, coming up with a midyear date that doesn't clash with anything we don't want to clash with will not be easy, but if we truly want to Globalise the pedia we should at least try to do this.
I don't observe Ramadan, or watch sport, and I'm happy to eat pork. But if we want future Wikimanias to be open to a truly global community then I believe that we should aim for Gdansk to be the last Wikimania with Pork on the menu and Haifa the last that clashes with any major religious event (I have no objection to a two hour break for sports fans provided there is, as at Gdansk, an alternative for the sportsphobic amongst us).
WereSpielChequers
On 20 July 2011 22:41, Casey Brown lists@caseybrown.org wrote:
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Manuel Schneider manuel.schneider@wikimedia.ch wrote:
We discussed that last year and someone came up with a sensible remark:
If you are travelling during Ramadan, you are excempted from the fast.
It should also be noted that Wikimania 2009 also took place during Ramadan, and Wikimania 2012 will miss it by only a few days.
There's also already a page on wikimania2011wiki directed at the Muslim Ramadan-observing Wikimaniacs that has been up for almost an entire year (August 2010!). http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ramadan
Having Wikimania during Ramadan isn't a showstopper... they can still partake in all of the normal Wikimania activities, and this year's Wikimania has already made plans to support them.
-- Casey Brown Cbrown1023
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+1
I also agree with Craig too, and let me point out the Christians in the Eastern tradition (including Orthodox, Coptic and Assyrians) it's not enough to avoid meat on Friday, Wednesday is still a day for fasting, and rules are stricter than the one Western brethren have today. See [[en:Fasting]] if you are curious.
Also if I recall correctly, the Orthodox Judaism have their own fasting days which are totally different from Christian ones (since the latter have chosen different days from Judaism ones)? What if we avoid all those four fasting days which the most religious people might want to avoid any kind of secular things?
Wikimania is anyway a secular event one of whose core values is NPOV. It might be wise and accord courtesy to avoid those religious days, but it's not necessarily aimed in my humble opinion.
Last but not least, I'd like appreciate the local team for satisfying particular requests of attendees, including food restrictions for various reasons.
Cheers,
On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 9:36 PM, Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com wrote:
I have a somewhat different take on this. There's no reason to "annoy" anyone if people were not so inclined to be so outspokenly "annoyed" (and Wikimedians are world champions in this sport of being annoyed).
For example, observant Jews who eat kosher know full well that expecting kosher food in an international conference in a non-Jewish area is something they could only dream of, and so they make various makeshift solutions - they eat what they can (for example, fresh fruit and vegetables) and bring food with them from home (canned tuna, for example). The important fact is that they don't consider for a moment to be "annoyed" by the lack of kosher food. Keeping kosher is their own decision, and so it's their own problem, so to say, and they're perfectly content with it.
Harel
On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 15:27, Craig Franklin craig@halo-17.net wrote:
The problem with what you're proposing is that everyone has something they don't want to see, and sooner or later you'll annoy someone by omitting something they need. Case in point: the recent Chapters conference in Berlin was vegan food only, which clashed with my cultural requirement to have fish on a Friday.
You simply can't make everyone happy. On 21 July 2011 22:22, WereSpielChequers werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
The reason why I suggested that we make a commitment that "future Wikimanias won't clash with Ramadan or certain other "culturally sensitive" dates", Is that as Harel pointed out it isn't just Islam that has dates we should avoid (and I appreciate that Muslims are exempt from their fast on their way to and from Wikimania). I accept that it won't be easy to come up with dates that work for a culturally sensitive global organisation, and I'm aware that this isn't the first time we've clashed with Ramadan. Globalisation is hard, coming up with a midyear date that doesn't clash with anything we don't want to clash with will not be easy, but if we truly want to Globalise the pedia we should at least try to do this.
I don't observe Ramadan, or watch sport, and I'm happy to eat pork. But if we want future Wikimanias to be open to a truly global community then I believe that we should aim for Gdansk to be the last Wikimania with Pork on the menu and Haifa the last that clashes with any major religious event (I have no objection to a two hour break for sports fans provided there is, as at Gdansk, an alternative for the sportsphobic amongst us).
WereSpielChequers
On 20 July 2011 22:41, Casey Brown lists@caseybrown.org wrote:
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Manuel Schneider manuel.schneider@wikimedia.ch wrote:
We discussed that last year and someone came up with a sensible remark:
If you are travelling during Ramadan, you are excempted from the fast.
It should also be noted that Wikimania 2009 also took place during Ramadan, and Wikimania 2012 will miss it by only a few days.
There's also already a page on wikimania2011wiki directed at the Muslim Ramadan-observing Wikimaniacs that has been up for almost an entire year (August 2010!). http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ramadan
Having Wikimania during Ramadan isn't a showstopper... they can still partake in all of the normal Wikimania activities, and this year's Wikimania has already made plans to support them.
-- Casey Brown Cbrown1023
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
-- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
I must agree with Craig here: that the chapters conference served only vegan food this year wasn't a popular decision among southeast Asian delegates either. You can't please everyone, and it is important to know whom to please. Avoiding Sabbath and Ramadan is probably a good culturally aware idea for a Wikimania in Israel; abstinence from pork for a Wikimania in Poland (there were vegetarian options) probably not. On Jul 21, 2011 8:27 PM, "Craig Franklin" craig@halo-17.net wrote:
The problem with what you're proposing is that everyone has something they don't want to see, and sooner or later you'll annoy someone by omitting something they need. Case in point: the recent Chapters conference in Berlin was vegan food only, which clashed with my cultural requirement to have fish on a Friday.
You simply can't make everyone happy.
On 21 July 2011 22:22, WereSpielChequers <werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
The reason why I suggested that we make a commitment that "future Wikimanias won't clash with Ramadan or certain other "culturally sensitive" dates", Is that as Harel pointed out it isn't just Islam that has dates we should avoid (and I appreciate that Muslims are exempt from their fast on their way to and from Wikimania). I accept that it won't be easy to come up with dates that work for a culturally sensitive global organisation, and I'm aware that this isn't the first time we've clashed with Ramadan. Globalisation is hard, coming up with a midyear date that doesn't clash with anything we don't want to clash with will not be easy, but if we truly want to Globalise the pedia we should at least try to do this.
I don't observe Ramadan, or watch sport, and I'm happy to eat pork. But if we want future Wikimanias to be open to a truly global community then I believe that we should aim for Gdansk to be the last Wikimania with Pork on the menu and Haifa the last that clashes with any major religious event (I have no objection to a two hour break for sports fans provided there is, as at Gdansk, an alternative for the sportsphobic amongst us).
WereSpielChequers
On 20 July 2011 22:41, Casey Brown lists@caseybrown.org wrote:
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Manuel Schneider manuel.schneider@wikimedia.ch wrote:
We discussed that last year and someone came up with a sensible
remark:
If you are travelling during Ramadan, you are excempted from the fast.
It should also be noted that Wikimania 2009 also took place during Ramadan, and Wikimania 2012 will miss it by only a few days.
There's also already a page on wikimania2011wiki directed at the Muslim Ramadan-observing Wikimaniacs that has been up for almost an entire year (August 2010!). http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ramadan
Having Wikimania during Ramadan isn't a showstopper... they can still partake in all of the normal Wikimania activities, and this year's Wikimania has already made plans to support them.
-- Casey Brown Cbrown1023
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
נא להסיר את כתובתי מרשימת מייל זו מיידית. תודה ושבת שלום. פרץ. rotkopf@gmail.com
2011/7/21 Deryck Chan deryckchan@gmail.com
I must agree with Craig here: that the chapters conference served only vegan food this year wasn't a popular decision among southeast Asian delegates either. You can't please everyone, and it is important to know whom to please. Avoiding Sabbath and Ramadan is probably a good culturally aware idea for a Wikimania in Israel; abstinence from pork for a Wikimania in Poland (there were vegetarian options) probably not. On Jul 21, 2011 8:27 PM, "Craig Franklin" craig@halo-17.net wrote:
The problem with what you're proposing is that everyone has something
they
don't want to see, and sooner or later you'll annoy someone by omitting something they need. Case in point: the recent Chapters conference in Berlin was vegan food only, which clashed with my cultural requirement to have fish on a Friday.
You simply can't make everyone happy.
On 21 July 2011 22:22, WereSpielChequers <werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
The reason why I suggested that we make a commitment that "future Wikimanias won't clash with Ramadan or certain other "culturally sensitive" dates", Is that as Harel pointed out it isn't just Islam that has dates we should avoid (and I appreciate that Muslims are exempt from their fast on their way to and from Wikimania). I accept that it won't be easy to come up with dates that work for a culturally sensitive global organisation, and I'm aware that this isn't the first time we've clashed with Ramadan. Globalisation is hard, coming up with a midyear date that doesn't clash with anything we don't want to clash with will not be easy, but if we truly want to Globalise the pedia we should at least try to do this.
I don't observe Ramadan, or watch sport, and I'm happy to eat pork. But if we want future Wikimanias to be open to a truly global community then I believe that we should aim for Gdansk to be the last Wikimania with Pork on the menu and Haifa the last that clashes with any major religious event (I have no objection to a two hour break for sports fans provided there is, as at Gdansk, an alternative for the sportsphobic amongst us).
WereSpielChequers
On 20 July 2011 22:41, Casey Brown lists@caseybrown.org wrote:
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Manuel Schneider manuel.schneider@wikimedia.ch wrote:
We discussed that last year and someone came up with a sensible
remark:
If you are travelling during Ramadan, you are excempted from the
fast.
It should also be noted that Wikimania 2009 also took place during Ramadan, and Wikimania 2012 will miss it by only a few days.
There's also already a page on wikimania2011wiki directed at the Muslim Ramadan-observing Wikimaniacs that has been up for almost an entire year (August 2010!). http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ramadan
Having Wikimania during Ramadan isn't a showstopper... they can still partake in all of the normal Wikimania activities, and this year's Wikimania has already made plans to support them.
-- Casey Brown Cbrown1023
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
I just wanted to clarify something here about the Berlin meeting, because I feel my initial email may have came across as a little harsh. My understanding was that a lot of restrictions were put forward by the venue itself, rather than the chapter. The meetings outside the venue had beer and sausages, which I found most agreeable :-). I didn't make a fuss or complain, because I saw it as a case of "their house, their rules". And we were blessed to be in an area of Berlin with plenty of restaurants, so I was able to go to a fish restaurant and a steak restaurant after the conference broke.
But what I said about not being able to please everyone, especially when they're a bunch as diverse as we are, stands. It sounds like the Haifa crew are on the ball by making sure that there are alternatives available for those who have particular cultural or religious requirements.
Cheers, Craig
On 22 July 2011 01:15, Deryck Chan deryckchan@gmail.com wrote:
I must agree with Craig here: that the chapters conference served only vegan food this year wasn't a popular decision among southeast Asian delegates either. You can't please everyone, and it is important to know whom to please. Avoiding Sabbath and Ramadan is probably a good culturally aware idea for a Wikimania in Israel; abstinence from pork for a Wikimania in Poland (there were vegetarian options) probably not. On Jul 21, 2011 8:27 PM, "Craig Franklin" craig@halo-17.net wrote:
The problem with what you're proposing is that everyone has something
they
don't want to see, and sooner or later you'll annoy someone by omitting something they need. Case in point: the recent Chapters conference in Berlin was vegan food only, which clashed with my cultural requirement to have fish on a Friday.
You simply can't make everyone happy.
On 21 July 2011 22:22, WereSpielChequers <werespielchequers@gmail.com wrote:
The reason why I suggested that we make a commitment that "future Wikimanias won't clash with Ramadan or certain other "culturally sensitive" dates", Is that as Harel pointed out it isn't just Islam that has dates we should avoid (and I appreciate that Muslims are exempt from their fast on their way to and from Wikimania). I accept that it won't be easy to come up with dates that work for a culturally sensitive global organisation, and I'm aware that this isn't the first time we've clashed with Ramadan. Globalisation is hard, coming up with a midyear date that doesn't clash with anything we don't want to clash with will not be easy, but if we truly want to Globalise the pedia we should at least try to do this.
I don't observe Ramadan, or watch sport, and I'm happy to eat pork. But if we want future Wikimanias to be open to a truly global community then I believe that we should aim for Gdansk to be the last Wikimania with Pork on the menu and Haifa the last that clashes with any major religious event (I have no objection to a two hour break for sports fans provided there is, as at Gdansk, an alternative for the sportsphobic amongst us).
WereSpielChequers
On 20 July 2011 22:41, Casey Brown lists@caseybrown.org wrote:
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Manuel Schneider manuel.schneider@wikimedia.ch wrote:
We discussed that last year and someone came up with a sensible
remark:
If you are travelling during Ramadan, you are excempted from the
fast.
It should also be noted that Wikimania 2009 also took place during Ramadan, and Wikimania 2012 will miss it by only a few days.
There's also already a page on wikimania2011wiki directed at the Muslim Ramadan-observing Wikimaniacs that has been up for almost an entire year (August 2010!). http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ramadan
Having Wikimania during Ramadan isn't a showstopper... they can still partake in all of the normal Wikimania activities, and this year's Wikimania has already made plans to support them.
-- Casey Brown Cbrown1023
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On 21 July 2011 13:27, Craig Franklin craig@halo-17.net wrote:
The problem with what you're proposing is that everyone has something they don't want to see, and sooner or later you'll annoy someone by omitting something they need. Case in point: the recent Chapters conference in Berlin was vegan food only, which clashed with my cultural requirement to have fish on a Friday.
I'm curious, what culture is that? I'm aware that Catholics traditionally eat fish on Fridays, but that's actually a requirement not to eat meat, so they eat fish instead (which, for some reason, doesn't count as meat). I've never heard of a positive requirement to eat fish on Fridays before.
Em 20/07/2011 14:38, Thomas Dalton escreveu:
I agree, avoiding Ramadan isn't really feasible. Wikimania is always held in the summer, and I don't think we should change that.
In the south hemisphere, the summer begins on December. Just a remark.
Castelo
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 8:21 PM, CasteloBranco michelcastelobranco@gmail.com wrote:
Em 20/07/2011 14:38, Thomas Dalton escreveu:
I agree, avoiding Ramadan isn't really feasible. Wikimania is always held in the summer, and I don't think we should change that.
In the south hemisphere, the summer begins on December. Just a remark.
Castelo
Wikimania is always held during Northern summer / Southern winter.
RESOLVED/FIXED
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Because... ?? xD
REOPENED
Em 20/07/2011 21:25, James Hare escreveu:
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 8:21 PM, CasteloBranco michelcastelobranco@gmail.com wrote:
Em 20/07/2011 14:38, Thomas Dalton escreveu:
I agree, avoiding Ramadan isn't really feasible. Wikimania is always held in the summer, and I don't think we should change that.
In the south hemisphere, the summer begins on December. Just a remark.
Castelo
Wikimania is always held during Northern summer / Southern winter.
RESOLVED/FIXED
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 8:27 PM, CasteloBranco michelcastelobranco@gmail.com wrote:
Because... ?? xD
REOPENED
As far as I know, it's simply been because of...
TRADITIOOOOOONNNNN!!!
If you don't get the reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRdfX7ut8gw.
Em 20/07/2011 21:25, James Hare escreveu:
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 8:21 PM, CasteloBranco michelcastelobranco@gmail.com wrote:
Em 20/07/2011 14:38, Thomas Dalton escreveu:
I agree, avoiding Ramadan isn't really feasible. Wikimania is always held in the summer, and I don't think we should change that.
In the south hemisphere, the summer begins on December. Just a remark.
Castelo
Wikimania is always held during Northern summer / Southern winter.
RESOLVED/FIXED
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
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Yes, James, you're probably right. It was a joke, of course, but also a kind of invite to a reflexion.
If we want to improve the participation of people from Middle East, Africa, India, Latin America, it doesn't make any sense to make choices thinking on what it's comfortable for all the rest, but not for them. Or even on what it's traditional.
I think this is a real concern for strategy, and we can discuss it better for the next times. Wikimania shouldn't be held always in July or August. This is not the law, isn't written in stone. Before trying to change the world, we should be able to change ourselves.
Just my two cents.
Castelo
Em 20/07/2011 21:27, CasteloBranco escreveu:
Because... ?? xD
REOPENED
Em 20/07/2011 21:25, James Hare escreveu:
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 8:21 PM, CasteloBranco michelcastelobranco@gmail.com wrote:
Em 20/07/2011 14:38, Thomas Dalton escreveu:
I agree, avoiding Ramadan isn't really feasible. Wikimania is always held in the summer, and I don't think we should change that.
In the south hemisphere, the summer begins on December. Just a remark.
Castelo
Wikimania is always held during Northern summer / Southern winter.
RESOLVED/FIXED
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 8:52 PM, CasteloBranco michelcastelobranco@gmail.com wrote:
Yes, James, you're probably right. It was a joke, of course, but also a kind of invite to a reflexion.
If we want to improve the participation of people from Middle East, Africa, India, Latin America, it doesn't make any sense to make choices thinking on what it's comfortable for all the rest, but not for them. Or even on what it's traditional.
I think this is a real concern for strategy, and we can discuss it better for the next times. Wikimania shouldn't be held always in July or August. This is not the law, isn't written in stone. Before trying to change the world, we should be able to change ourselves.
Just my two cents.
I totally know what you're getting at. It would make more sense, for instance, if Wikimania 2012 were held in March or April because the summer here is not all that comfortable. (It's actually just fine, but I'm probably used to it.) We didn't, however, feel like deviating from Tradition! in this instance, and we're not going to change it now.
Castelo
Em 20/07/2011 21:27, CasteloBranco escreveu:
Because... ?? xD
REOPENED
Em 20/07/2011 21:25, James Hare escreveu:
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 8:21 PM, CasteloBranco michelcastelobranco@gmail.com wrote:
Em 20/07/2011 14:38, Thomas Dalton escreveu:
I agree, avoiding Ramadan isn't really feasible. Wikimania is always held in the summer, and I don't think we should change that.
In the south hemisphere, the summer begins on December. Just a remark.
Castelo
Wikimania is always held during Northern summer / Southern winter.
RESOLVED/FIXED
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
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On 21 July 2011 01:21, CasteloBranco michelcastelobranco@gmail.com wrote:
Em 20/07/2011 14:38, Thomas Dalton escreveu:
I agree, avoiding Ramadan isn't really feasible. Wikimania is always held in the summer, and I don't think we should change that.
In the south hemisphere, the summer begins on December. Just a remark.
Apologies, I should have said "northern summer". Since about 90% of the world's population live north of the equator, though, I think it's reasonable to use "summer" without qualification to mean "northern summer" in a global conversation.
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