These issues are a symptom of the closed processes that have occurred firstly with Montreal and next year with middle eastern attendees to Cape Town . Acknowledging that the change was because of the amount effort put in by unsuccessful bidders was said to be wasted its showing that some things need to be opened for community discussion before decisions are made. That it may be better for the WMF to require applicants to first obtain a visa before being confirmed for the scholarships in the future. Perth/Australia is another place that visas for attendees wouldnt have been a big issue. On 22 June 2017 at 17:43, cs <cs(a)edubkk.org> wrote: -- GN. President Wikimedia Australia WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com

I wonder, do we keep track of the number of visa rejections year over year, so that we know in comparison? There are of course many factors that go into venue selection - one of them is visa (another is security, political stability etc). The countries that I remember going relatively smoothly were the ones where the organizers sought a collaboration with the foreign affairs of their country, to get some help. I don't know if Wikimedia Canada was able to accomplish that. But it does mean that a general bad reputation is not necessarily a bad rejection rate for this particular conference. (if memory serves me well, WMIL did a great job in this respect in 2011, for example) Lodewijk On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Felix Nartey <flixtey(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Jean-Philippe, just to be clear: I'm not trying to blame WMCA for anything. 'being able to accomplish that' includes having the expertise and manpower. It would be great if you could help with visa issues, but given the situation, that is just not always possible. Lodewijk On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 4:24 PM, Jean-Philippe Béland &lt;jpbeland(a)wikimedia.ca > Wikimedia Canada was not the requester behind having Wikimania in > Montreal, so it cannot be blamed for that. A "Wikimania Montreal > Committee", now defunct, was behind the request to WMF to have Wikimania in > Montreal and they did not coordinate with the chapter in doing this. As a > chapter, we are picking up some of the slack right now to ensure a smooth > conference, but I don't think it is fair to blame the chapter for not doing > this. > > Jean-Philippe Béland > Vice President, Wikimedia Canada > User:Amqui > > > On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 6:57 AM, Lodewijk &lt;lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org&gt; > >> I wonder, do we keep track of the number of visa rejections year over >> year, so that we know in comparison? >> >> There are of course many factors that go into venue selection - one of >> them is visa (another is security, political stability etc). The countries >> that I remember going relatively smoothly were the ones where the >> organizers sought a collaboration with the foreign affairs of their >> country, to get some help. I don't know if Wikimedia Canada was able to >> accomplish that. But it does mean that a general bad reputation is not >> necessarily a bad rejection rate for this particular conference. (if memory >> serves me well, WMIL did a great job in this respect in 2011, for example) >> >> Lodewijk >> >> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Felix Nartey &lt;flixtey(a)gmail.com>> >>> This is a big issue and I think should be looked into more seriously. >>> Similar challenges were faced by participants from the Global South >>> selected to attend the CC Summit in Toronto early this year. >>> >>> This should inform future selection for all conference venues as it >>> allows for poor representation of the Global South at international >>> conferences. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:13 AM, Gnangarra &lt;gnangarra(a)gmail.com>>> >>>> These issues are a symptom of the closed processes that have occurred >>>> firstly with Montreal and next year with middle eastern attendees to Cape >>>> Town . Acknowledging that the change was because of the amount effort put >>>> in by unsuccessful bidders was said to be wasted its showing that some >>>> things need to be opened for community discussion before decisions are >>>> made. >>>> >>>> That it may be better for the WMF to require applicants to first >>>> obtain a visa before being confirmed for the scholarships in the future. >>>> Perth/Australia is another place that visas for attendees wouldnt have been >>>> a big issue. >>>> >>>> On 22 June 2017 at 17:43, cs &lt;cs(a)edubkk.org>>>> >>>>> That’s one of the reasons why I proposed Bangkok, Thailand, for >>>>> 2019 - apart from its extremely tolerant social cultures and very low >>>>> cost, while being a very modern hi-tech city easily accessible by >>>>> direct flights from most parts of the world. Almost everyone can enter >>>>> the country for at least 15 days without even a visa. Thailand only >>>>> makes it difficult for people wanting to stay longer (years) in the country >>>>> on the pretext of being tourists. >>>>> >>>>> It’s a shame for the visa refusals, but perhaps this will open up the >>>>> possibility to some refused scholarship applications. >>>>> >>>>> Kudpung. >>>>> >>>>> On 22Jun, 2017, at 16:23, Bodhisattwa Mandal < >>>>> bodhisattwa.rgkmc(a)gmail.com>>>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from >>>>> global south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian >>>>> embassies from these countries. >>>>> >>>>> This year, we had 7 scholarship recipients from Bengali community, 4 >>>>> from India and 3 from Bangladesh. Already 3 out of 4 scholarship recipients >>>>> from Indian part of the communities got their visa rejected, others are >>>>> waiting. Although I am hoping for the best for all the scholarship >>>>> recipients, but may be news of more rejections are coming soon. >>>>> >>>>> Wikimania should be organised in a visa friendly country, and not in >>>>> those countries where global south citizens are not allowed to enter even >>>>> for a 6-days conference. Otherwise, a global community is not truly >>>>> presented. >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes, >>>>> Bodhisattwa >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list >>>>> Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list >>>>> Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> GN. >>>> President Wikimedia Australia >>>> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra >>>> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimania-l mailing list >>>> Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> *Felix Nartey* >>> *Cofounder/Director Finance & Admin* >>> *Open Foundation West Africa <https://openfoundationwestafrica.org/>* >>> *+233242844987 <+233%2024%20284%204987> | +447440959477 >>> <+44%207440%20959477>* >>> *Skype:Flixtey* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimania-l mailing list >>> Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimania-l mailing list >> Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l >> >> > > > -- > > Jean-Philippe Béland > > [image: Wikimedia Canada] Vice-président — Wikimédia Canada > <https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page?uselang=fr>, chapitre national > soutenant Wikipédia > Vice president — Wikimedia Canada > <https://ca.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page?uselang=en>, national chapter > supporting Wikipedia > 535 avenue Viger Est, Montréal (Québec) H2L 2P3,jpbeland(a)wikimedia.ca > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimania-l mailing list > Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l > >

Hi Jayanta, please be careful to make judgement calls without knowing all the facts. Lodewijk On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 7:07 PM, Jayanta Nath &lt;jayantanth(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

I suggest you direct your questions to visas(a)wikimedia.org. Those requests were managed by an international team. You will get better answers than on this mailing list I think. JP On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 12:07 PM Jayanta Nath &lt;jayantanth(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

I have a few comments: 1) We do not know how the Montreal venue was selected for Wikimania. Jean-Philippe said: "A "Wikimania Montreal Committee", now defunct, was behind the request to WMF to have Wikimania in Montreal and they did not coordinate with the chapter in doing this." The situation there is obviously more complicated than what is being said so I will not dwell on that. What disturbs me is that the Montreal bid was accepted in absence of the local chapter support. That is not acceptable. Looking back on the success of the Esino Lario event, I believe that strong local chapter and volunteer support is vital for a Wikimania event. 2) Wikimania should be a world conference of Wikimedians. One very important aspect of a bid should be visa help. Some countries are shall we say "visa-friendly" and some countries are not. If the event is to be held in a country where it is difficult to obtain visas, the organizers must set up a service to facilitate the visa process and obtain help from their local government authorities. In Geneva, for example, the government has set up an office to help foreign delegates get visas for international conferences, both UN conferences and NGO conferences. I have met with them a few times and they are really very helpful. 3) The scholarships probably need to be awarded a bit sooner so that recipients have enough time to go through the whole visa procedure. Most countries require proof that the visitor has a return flight and that he can cover his food and lodging expenses as well as his emergency medical expenses. It has also been pointed out in this discussion that some embassies are quite fond of old fashioned paper. That means snail mail, pony express and all that. I works fine, it just takes time... Gabriel On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 8:45 PM, Nurunnaby Hasive &lt;nch(a)nhasive.com&gt; wrote:

A lot of great suggestions and comments have been shared on here, but just to add unto that. One thing I know for sure that works is having an invitation letter from say the WMF and the Local Organising Organisation. It is also very useful to often include mayors of towns, states and cities where the conferences will happen. This is one the very reasons why ICANN conferences are usually successful in terms of attendance, you get these two letters and an endorsement from say a mayor and that carries a lot of weight. I know this was also done for Wikimania Esino Lario and this could have accounted for its, low rejection rates. Cheers, On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 12:00 AM, Ellie Young &lt;eyoung(a)wikimedia.org&gt; wrote: -- *Felix Nartey* *Cofounder/Director Finance & Admin* *Open Foundation West Africa <https://openfoundationwestafrica.org/>* *+233242844987 | +447440959477* *Skype:Flixtey*

As a person who missed three events because of rejection of visa (one Wikimania, one Wikimedia Hackathon, one WikiArabia) and missed two other because couldn't event get an appointment with the embassy (DevSummits) I want to share my experience here. There is three parties involved in this case: - Participants: -- If you are going to another country that has strict visa rules, you should be prepared and know what can go wrong. Usually make a group of people who are more experienced in Wikimedia events and ask them for help. This helped me in some events to get visa without trouble. One case I remember was when the invitation letter was from WMF and not the local chapter. It caused rejection of visa before me and once I knew it, I fixed it. -- Be prepared for other options. For example, for Esino Lario one of my friends missed the event because he couldn't get appointment with the embassy, when I knew this is a problem, I tried the German embassy and got the visa ready in time. (Per Schengen laws, you need to make requests to the country you will stay the most, so I stayed in Germany for 11 days and Italy for 8 days to make things legal) -- If you have an interview to justify your visa, definitely mention Wikipedia. People don't know what WMF is but all know Wikipedia and have positive feelings. -- I know it's hard but let go sometimes: I decided not to go at this year's Wikimania just because the visa process is horrible and I need to travel to Turkey at least twice. Even though I know I miss a great event but let's hope to meet them soon. -WMF: -- I know WMF is busy but I mentioned this several times to legal, support and safety and some other teams. People like me have problem going to events and there should be support for them. Two things were always said and I don't know why it's not being done, 1- Prepare a centralized place (probably in meta) so people share experience to help newbies to get visa documents right. I have seen lots of problems in the documents my friends need to prepare for the visa and helped them to get it right before it gets rejected but I had to meet them in person and it's an exclusive club of people I know. I want to open this knowledge to others. -- The other option I always mentioning is support for getting one multiple entries visa instead of getting one visa for each event, This is very true for European events. This would make life of lots of people way easier. Local chapters: -- When there is a Wikimania, a local chapter will be handling process of visa for lots of countries with different issues. Sometimes they handle it perfectly and other problems might be the reason for rejection but sometimes I need to come back to them and ask for more documents which increases the chance of rejection or visa not being issued in time. They usually consult with an immigration lawyer before the process, this needs to be increased and WMF needs to make sure these consults happen. Sorry for the long email. I hope this would be helpful for you. Best On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 1:51 PM Ilario valdelli < ilario.valdelli(a)wikimedia.ch&gt; wrote:

Hi Amir, If you do write something up, please let me know so I can link from Wikimania 2018 site. Cheers, Peter From: Wikimania-l [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Zana Strkovska Sent: Sunday, 25 June 2017 1:49 AM To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections Hi Amir, I found your experience with visa issue very edifying. You can write a study case for this matter. Do not wait for opening centralized place on meta to share what you know about how to get a visa. Regards, Zana 2017-06-24 14:47 GMT+02:00 Amir Ladsgroup &lt;ladsgroup(a)gmail.com&gt;om>: As a person who missed three events because of rejection of visa (one Wikimania, one Wikimedia Hackathon, one WikiArabia) and missed two other because couldn't event get an appointment with the embassy (DevSummits) I want to share my experience here. There is three parties involved in this case: - Participants: -- If you are going to another country that has strict visa rules, you should be prepared and know what can go wrong. Usually make a group of people who are more experienced in Wikimedia events and ask them for help. This helped me in some events to get visa without trouble. One case I remember was when the invitation letter was from WMF and not the local chapter. It caused rejection of visa before me and once I knew it, I fixed it. -- Be prepared for other options. For example, for Esino Lario one of my friends missed the event because he couldn't get appointment with the embassy, when I knew this is a problem, I tried the German embassy and got the visa ready in time. (Per Schengen laws, you need to make requests to the country you will stay the most, so I stayed in Germany for 11 days and Italy for 8 days to make things legal) -- If you have an interview to justify your visa, definitely mention Wikipedia. People don't know what WMF is but all know Wikipedia and have positive feelings. -- I know it's hard but let go sometimes: I decided not to go at this year's Wikimania just because the visa process is horrible and I need to travel to Turkey at least twice. Even though I know I miss a great event but let's hope to meet them soon. -WMF: -- I know WMF is busy but I mentioned this several times to legal, support and safety and some other teams. People like me have problem going to events and there should be support for them. Two things were always said and I don't know why it's not being done, 1- Prepare a centralized place (probably in meta) so people share experience to help newbies to get visa documents right. I have seen lots of problems in the documents my friends need to prepare for the visa and helped them to get it right before it gets rejected but I had to meet them in person and it's an exclusive club of people I know. I want to open this knowledge to others. -- The other option I always mentioning is support for getting one multiple entries visa instead of getting one visa for each event, This is very true for European events. This would make life of lots of people way easier. Local chapters: -- When there is a Wikimania, a local chapter will be handling process of visa for lots of countries with different issues. Sometimes they handle it perfectly and other problems might be the reason for rejection but sometimes I need to come back to them and ask for more documents which increases the chance of rejection or visa not being issued in time. They usually consult with an immigration lawyer before the process, this needs to be increased and WMF needs to make sure these consults happen. Sorry for the long email. I hope this would be helpful for you. Best On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 1:51 PM Ilario valdelli &lt;ilario.valdelli(a)wikimedia.ch&gt; wrote: On 24/06/2017 02:00, Ellie Young wrote: On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Gabriel Thullen &lt;gabriel(a)thullen.com&gt; wrote: I have a few comments: 1) We do not know how the Montreal venue was selected for Wikimania. Jean-Philippe said: "A "Wikimania Montreal Committee", now defunct, was behind the request to WMF to have Wikimania in Montreal and they did not coordinate with the chapter in doing this." The situation there is obviously more complicated than what is being said so I will not dwell on that. What disturbs me is that the Montreal bid was accepted in absence of the local chapter support. That is not acceptable. Looking back on the success of the Esino Lario event, I believe that strong local chapter and volunteer support is vital for a Wikimania event. ​​Let us just say that there was confusion and communication issues with the original proposers to host. The Steering Committee (including yours truly) thought that Wikimedia Canada was involved. I think everyone can agree how important it is for having the local chapters involved--- most recently Esino Lario and Mexico City and of course South Africa coming up. Hi Ellie, This is an interesting point. I know that recently there has been a decision to have Wikimania's organization notified two years in advance, but this model can only work if there is a "local group" with a mature organization. Two years are too many for a local "extemporary" committee. A chapter (with at least a small staff) is something that can assure a commitment for two years and can support efficiently a local group (and perhaps to save the organization in case of withdrawal). Basically the two year model cannot be disconnected from a *mature* local organization as a chapter, otherwise the model will not work. But at this point is also interesting to know how big may be the impact on a chapter. The organization of an event like Wikimania is something fascinating, but at the same time it's more than a "stress test" for a chapter. Kind regards -- Ilario Valdelli Wikimedia CH Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera Switzerland - 8008 Zürich Tel: +41764821371 <tel:+41%2076%20482%2013%2071> http://www.wikimedia.ch <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Image removed by sender. Mail priva di virus. <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> www.avast.com _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

The creation of one or more learning patterns could be good here. Please see https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Learning_patterns. Pine On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 11:07 AM, Ellie Young &lt;eyoung(a)wikimedia.org&gt; wrote:

today I found out another wikimedian from Iraq was also rejected because of "purpose of trip", I highly believe this stem from our invitation letter which is from WFM not a local entity. why should an American foundation invite someone to Canada ? it would be great if others could update us about their visa situation Mardetanha On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 5:27 PM, Cornelius Kibelka < cornelius.kibelka(a)wikimedia.de&gt; wrote:

2017-06-22 13:57 GMT+03:00 Lodewijk &lt;lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org&gt;rg>: year, so that we know in comparison? them is visa (another is security, political stability etc). The countries that I remember going relatively smoothly were the ones where the organizers sought a collaboration with the foreign affairs of their country, to get some help. I don't know if Wikimedia Canada was able to accomplish that. But it does mean that a general bad reputation is not necessarily a bad rejection rate for this particular conference. (if memory serves me well, WMIL did a great job in this respect in 2011, for example) Heh, I'm not sure whether it was positive or negative :) Jokes aside, this involved A LOT of work from the Haifa organizing team. Many months before the event Wikimedia Israel people (not me) contacted the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, explained to them what kind of event this is, and what kind of people come to it. The Ministry contacts were friendly and cooperative and suggested a process and an invitation letter. Then, when the actual event was coming closer (May–June or so), yours truly spent about two weeks doing nothing but sleeping, eating, and helping hundreds of people get visas. Luckily, I was employed very part-time back then and I could easily afford to volunteer for this. I mostly followed the process that the ministry suggested, but I also remember very-late-night Skype calls with participants from faraway timezones who had trouble filling forms (different forms in each consulate!) and writing special invitation letters for participants that represents highly respected international organizations. Days before the event I remember more surprising international phone calls from my country's representatives in consulates, airports, and border-crossings around the world—sometimes asking about Wikipedians I knew in person, and sometimes about people whom I had to look up in lists of participants and verify that they're legit (in case you're wondering, they all were). As far as _I_ know, there were two rejections in 2011, but there may have been others I don't know about. I've been telling this story every time I had a chance to talk to Wikimania organizers after 2011. Visa rejections come up every year at least since 2010, the year I started following Wikimania. The current version of the Wikimania Handbook [1] also refers to this: "Visa assistance—This is probably one of the most time-consuming and complicated thing to consider... Writing these letters is a full-time job". While writing this email I added: "... a full-time job for about two weeks or even more", and I moved the suggested time for this to April–May instead of May–June. The Wikimania Handbook is awesome, and it's written based on real experience—future organizers should take it seriously. (I'm _not_ implying that the 2017 organizers didn't take it seriously. I acknowledge that it's complicated and that every country is different.) [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Handbook -- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

What problems are expected for middle eastern attendees to Cape Town? What countries passports are expected to have problems? Cheers, Peter From: Wikimania-l [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Gnangarra Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 12:14 PM To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections These issues are a symptom of the closed processes that have occurred firstly with Montreal and next year with middle eastern attendees to Cape Town . Acknowledging that the change was because of the amount effort put in by unsuccessful bidders was said to be wasted its showing that some things need to be opened for community discussion before decisions are made. That it may be better for the WMF to require applicants to first obtain a visa before being confirmed for the scholarships in the future. Perth/Australia is another place that visas for attendees wouldnt have been a big issue. On 22 June 2017 at 17:43, cs &lt;cs(a)edubkk.org&gt; wrote: That’s one of the reasons why I proposed Bangkok, Thailand, for 2019 - apart from its extremely tolerant social cultures and very low cost, while being a very modern hi-tech city easily accessible by direct flights from most parts of the world. Almost everyone can enter the country for at least 15 days without even a visa. Thailand only makes it difficult for people wanting to stay longer (years) in the country on the pretext of being tourists. It’s a shame for the visa refusals, but perhaps this will open up the possibility to some refused scholarship applications. Kudpung. On 22Jun, 2017, at 16:23, Bodhisattwa Mandal &lt;bodhisattwa.rgkmc(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Hi, The main topic of discussion among the scholarship recipients from global south this month is the high visa rejection rate by Canadian embassies from these countries. This year, we had 7 scholarship recipients from Bengali community, 4 from India and 3 from Bangladesh. Already 3 out of 4 scholarship recipients from Indian part of the communities got their visa rejected, others are waiting. Although I am hoping for the best for all the scholarship recipients, but may be news of more rejections are coming soon. Wikimania should be organised in a visa friendly country, and not in those countries where global south citizens are not allowed to enter even for a 6-days conference. Otherwise, a global community is not truly presented. Best wishes, Bodhisattwa _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l -- GN. President Wikimedia Australia WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com Image removed by sender.

Lodewijk, AFAIK we've never kept track of rejections, but I could find out. My gut feeling is that there hasn't been a massive variation over the past 4 years, I think Mexico City was the most open to everybody (?) Rexford, possibly (and yeah Wiki = Wikileaks is *always* a problem lol). But some visa systems are very closed and bureaucratic and it's hard to bring any influence or assistance to bear beyond supporting documentation, i.e you can't even talk to a human being about it. To *truly assist* some of it would involve building political contacts beforehand to advocate for visas (i.e your local representative can help sometimes), that's a possibility but may create other problems, capacity for a start. The logistics of organising travel/accomm for hundreds of people from hundreds of locations is already onerous, adding an intensive visa support process into that it when some visa systems feel like a lottery would be easy to overpromise and underdeliver. What strikes me here is that visas are a problem for people from our developing communities, but they are one of many factors in deciding a Wikimania location. One country that might be visa-friendly to one, is prohibitively expensive to get to/stay in for another. So while Australia might be relaxed in terms of visas (I'm not confident of this btw) it's also objectively remote/expensive. Whether a location has achieved that balance is always a question, and I can't think of one Wikimania where everyone's agreed it has ;-) Stuart On 22 June 2017 at 12:12, Nkansah Rexford &lt;nkansahrexford(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

In addition, providing this *true assistance* won't be for *all* attendees. In many cases, only a select few of the total attendees will have the visa-related issues. Thus, say out of 100 applicants, just less than 20 individuals might need the assistance beyond the letter at their local embassies. And over and over again, we know these countries that yearly present visa troubles for applicants. And since it can be relatively easier for individuals with relatively high travel history to get visas, the actual people who might need this dedicated assistance can drop further. rex On Thursday, June 22, 2017, Nkansah Rexford &lt;nkansahrexford(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

My visa is also got rejected. So I am not coming to Canada this year. I think Canada is a bad place for Wikimania due to their strict rules. And thinking that is not a tourist friendly country. On 22-Jun-2017 8:59 PM, "Ivan Martínez" &lt;galaver(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

Wow so sorry to read this, Armine! If the pillars of our community are having their visas "rejected-by-filing-in-Moscow" then this is surely newsworthy? Maybe someone can run a piece on this problem? This case in particular is pretty shocking to me. On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 8:11 AM, Armine Aghayan &lt;arminehaghayan(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

That makes it sound even worse (creepy even, given the 8 weeks and counting time frame) On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 9:13 AM, Mardetanha &lt;mardetanha.wiki(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

I think this another good argument for holding Wikimania in a country like Thailand where I live, that has one of the most open travel doors in the world. The nationals of most countries can arrive here without any special documentation except of course a valid passport, and stay for at least two weeks. All they might be asked for on arrival is to show their return air ticket. Kudpung

Hi, For the sake of the discussion on "it's way better in my country", please look what your country's visa policy really is. For instance, check https://www.passportindex.org/byWelcomingRank.php or relative (English) Wikipedia articles. The former gives the following figures: (Five latest Wikimania hosts) * Canada: 51 country can enter visa-free, visa on arrival, ETA or equivalent * Mexico: 67 * UK: 91 * Italy: 93 * Hong Kong: 144 (Some other countries mentioned here) * Australia: 34 * Thailand: 78 * Israel: 96 Yes, that means that Canada is the least visa-friendly Wikimania host in the last 5 years. And yes, Thailand is less visa-friendly than the UK. And yes, Australia is the least visa-friendly country with an established Wikimedia chapter. Thus please do refer to facts when qualifying a country as a visa-friendly or not, and not to your own perception of a country's visa policy. Thanks Mykola (NickK) --- Оригінальне повідомлення --- Від кого: "DaB." &lt;wp(a)dabpunkt.eu&gt; Дата: 2 липня 2017, 23:19:44 Hello, Am 02.07.2017 um 13:37 schrieb cs: you mean a country which is currently a military dictatorship (for the second time in 10 years)? A country that was THIS close to a open civil war? And if not a civil war, maybe a real war with Cambodia? Visa problems are problematic, but it is 10 times better than to give the Wikimania to an instable country – we are not the FIFA. Sincerely, DaB. -- Benutzerseite: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]] PGP: 0x7CD1E35FD2A3A158 (pka funktioniert) _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

I would rather say it should not be the only measure. Of course Israel is a very special case (and so are countries whose governments ban Israeli citizens from entering their countries). Other than that we have multiple measures of visa-friendliness: * number of countries whose citizens do not need to apply for a visa * availability of embassies abroad, particularly in countries that are not visa-free (say, Canada has an extensive network of embassies all over the world, including countries whose citizens need visas) * visa application rejection rate * frequency of denial of entry at border control. I do not intend to promote any country, I just want everyone to be fair and do not call a country "visa-friendly" if in reality more than half of countries need visas there, and vice versa. * A visa-friendly country looks like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_Maldives * A country that is not visa-friendly looks like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_North_Korea Mykola (NickK) --- Оригінальне повідомлення --- Від кого: "Amir Ladsgroup" &lt;ladsgroup(a)gmail.com&gt; Дата: 3 липня 2017, 00:17:31 Number of countries that can enter a country without visa is not a good measurement for a country being visa-friendly. Let's use your example. Per what you said it seems Israel is a more visa friendly country than Italy which is not correct. It's correct Israel allows more people to visit without visa but 1- For a handful number of countries visiting Israel is not an option at all (like mine which has twenty years in jail when I come back) 2- if we pass that point, they are really difficult on giving visa to Muslim/Arab countries passport holders. 3- The border control is very harsh and can deny entry on strange reasons even with valid visa or passport of a not-visa-needed country. What you just need is to look slightly non-Western and they give you hell in border. It happened in a recent Wikimedia event. Best On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 2:33 AM Mykola Kozlenko &lt;mycola-k(a)ukr.net&gt; wrote: Hi, For the sake of the discussion on "it's way better in my country", please look what your country's visa policy really is. For instance, check https://www.passportindex.org/byWelcomingRank.php or relative (English) Wikipedia articles. The former gives the following figures: (Five latest Wikimania hosts) * Canada: 51 country can enter visa-free, visa on arrival, ETA or equivalent * Mexico: 67 * UK: 91 * Italy: 93 * Hong Kong: 144 (Some other countries mentioned here) * Australia: 34 * Thailand: 78 * Israel: 96 Yes, that means that Canada is the least visa-friendly Wikimania host in the last 5 years. And yes, Thailand is less visa-friendly than the UK. And yes, Australia is the least visa-friendly country with an established Wikimedia chapter. Thus please do refer to facts when qualifying a country as a visa-friendly or not, and not to your own perception of a country's visa policy. Thanks Mykola (NickK) --- Оригінальне повідомлення --- Від кого: "DaB." &lt;wp(a)dabpunkt.eu&gt; Дата: 2 липня 2017, 23:19:44 Hello, Am 02.07.2017 um 13:37 schrieb cs: you mean a country which is currently a military dictatorship (for the second time in 10 years)? A country that was THIS close to a open civil war? And if not a civil war, maybe a real war with Cambodia? Visa problems are problematic, but it is 10 times better than to give the Wikimania to an instable country – we are not the FIFA. Sincerely, DaB. -- Benutzerseite: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]] PGP: 0x7CD1E35FD2A3A158 (pka funktioniert) _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Unfair to say Australia is the least friendly country as the Australian Customs and Border protection has a whole dedicated process for conferences https://www.border.gov.au/Busi/Trav/Conf that enable processing of visa regardless of country by the organisors. That over 100 countries can apply electronically for a visitor visa with most applications process within 72 hours but what would I know having only worked in the tourism industry for 30 years that couldnt be found out by putting poor research om 3rd party sites as facts. On 3 July 2017 at 06:03, Mykola Kozlenko &lt;mycola-k(a)ukr.net&gt; wrote: -- GN. President Wikimedia Australia WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com

I have on 4 occassions put forward Perth WA bids, including for 2017, 2018 and 2019, my response was purely to highlight that information being put forward in this email thread that was incorrect and later praise as nice to facts being presented. NO intention of usurping this thread. I'm well aware of what it takes to host such a large event. I know what the significance being able to attend a Wikimania is and feel for those who are having visa problems On 27 July 2017 at 14:34, Lodewijk &lt;lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org&gt; wrote: -- GN. President Wikimedia Australia WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com

Excuse me for the blunt question. But are there any shortlisted candidates this time? A fellow Wikimedian asked me this, and I though I might as well ask the same on this thread. I'm sure there would be a lot of genuinely interested Wikimedians who would like to attend the conference, in lieu of the sheer number of rejected applicants. (with respect to the successful applicants who would not be able to make it, of course) Thanks and regards, User:Rehman<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rehman>

On a conversation with ViswaPrabha he confirmed that he got visa rejection from Canadian embessy so can't participate in this wikimania. He is holding a Canadian passport but got bad. Very sad to hear this. On 28-Jul-2017 3:50 AM, "Ellie Young" &lt;eyoung(a)wikimedia.org&gt; wrote:

Sorry my bad. He is holding a us visa. Not Canadian passport. But still got a rejection. On 31-Jul-2017 8:22 AM, "Josh Lim" &lt;jamesjoshualim(a)yahoo.com&gt; wrote:

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? I’ve lived here for nearly 20 years along with a million other Western expats. Or would you prefer SA with its extremely high crime rate and a history of bigotry that still lingers to this day. Now that’s a place I won’t be gong to. Kudpung

And to progress the best is to don’t forget some interesting points already defined in the previous emails. One factual point is to have locally a mature and stable organization that can manage Visas and related problems with visas. So, instead of speaking about dictatorships, the best is to stress this point. Kind regards Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Asaf Bartov Sent: 03 July 2017 04:43 To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship (Egypt, 2008), without particular problems.  But I suggest that this thread is not helped by personal opinions of countries. I applaud Mykola for introducing actual data into the discussion.    A. On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 6:48 PM cs &lt;cs(a)edubkk.org&gt; wrote: Do you have any idea what you are talking about?  I’ve lived here for nearly 20 years along with a million other Western expats. Or would you prefer SA with its extremely high crime rate and a history of bigotry that still lingers to this day. Now that’s a place I won’t be gong to. Kudpung _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l --- Questa e-mail è stata controllata per individuare virus con Avast antivirus. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Yes I was wondering about that. Helping people with visa applications is not a Wikimedia specialty (though I appreciate the work that has gone into the meta Learning patterns and those Wikipedia pages on visa policy that were linked earlier). I am thinking that maybe we need local collaboration on visa issues through our chapter representatives with e.g. local conference holders? Maybe in local academia? On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 10:02 AM, Ilario Valdelli < ilario.valdelli(a)wikimedia.ch&gt; wrote: