I have to agree with Majorly here. The efforts of our Egyptian hosts were all undone by their mercenary countrymen who view anyone with a fair skin as a walking wallet that needs to be emptied. The Egyptian tourist board needs to get their shit together and clean up Cairo airport. I should not have to fight off vagabonds with no identification who want to take my luggage off me, nor deal with opportunist taxi drivers who tell me that €10 is a good price to get from one terminal to another. I already knew there was a free shuttle, but no bugger would tell me where it was because there was no profit in that. While at terminal two I met up with a number of German Wikimedians, the fact that they did not even know that the shuttle bus was picking people up at terminal one speaks volumes about the effectiveness of communication regarding this. We fought off taxi drivers who offered to take us to Alexandria for 800 Egyptian pounds and eventually got the shuttle bus to the other airport – terminal one – where we assumed we could relax and wait on the bus to take us to Alexandria. We were not the first Wikimaniacs to get there. There were already about seven or eight conference attendees at terminal one. Some had been there since a little after 8am, and we got there around 3pm. A bus had been supposed to turn up at 2pm, but had not. Fortunately some of those already at the old airport had phone numbers for local Wikimedians, someone turned up to help us out, and at around 4:30pm a bus turned up to take people to Alexandria. The bus had seven seats, there were around 16 of us. GerardM faced down the bus driver and browbeat him into taking those who had been at the airport the longest, regardless of the precious list of names of people he was supposed to take. The rest of us were left with our Egyptian Wikimedian to figure out how to get from Cairo to Alexandria. That involved a – thankfully airconditioned - coach trip. There were two prolonged stops in Cairo while additional passengers were picked up, so what we were told would be a four hour trip took five and a half. However, I suspect everyone was just relieved to actually be in Alexandria; the issue of getting from the bus station to our accommodation – in my case the dorms - was a minor detail. When its midnight and you've been up since 4:30am you tend to be relieved you have somewhere to sleep, although the emails I had been sent about that turned out to be utter fiction. The conference itself was great, and a significant counter to the trials I had actually gone through to get there. We had WiFi in the dorms, but to be perfectly honest that was a bit of a joke – as was access in the library itself. In the library you could pretty much get a WiFi signal anywhere, the problem was that the pool of available IP addresses was not big enough. If you did not get logged on early enough in the morning you could move around all you liked, get a great signal, but simply not get online because there were no more addresses to give out. I had a number of reports passed to me indicating that only about half of the attendees could get online. It probably did not help that many attendees were using one address for their laptop and another for their iPhone. In the dorms we had one mickey-mouse Linksys box for about 40 people in an old building with thick walls. The signal didn't reach the end of the corridor where we were… And Cisco were one of the conference sponsors. The return to Cairo airport was less dramatic, and traumatic. However, as Majorly pointed out, both the limo (i.e cheapest Toyota you can buy with airco) driver and porter were obnoxiously persistent about tips. Brian McNeil -----Original Message----- From: wikimania-l-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Al Tally Sent: 28 July 2008 16:18 To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) Subject: [Wikimania-l] Comments It's now been a week since I got back. I enjoyed the actual conference, and meeting everyone in person. However, I have made up my mind that I never want to go to Egypt again, nor the next Wikimania. First off, the planning for this conference was pretty poor with regards to information. What I mean is, I had to pester people on IRC to get any kind of information regarding how to get to the shuttle, what to do on arrival etc. The schedule the team was supposed to be following wasn't followed. The scholarships were very late indeed, and when I finally received my "I'm sorry, but..." email, I'd already booked. The fact there was very little info *on the wiki* is atrocious. I had to pester Mido on IRC several times a week, to try and squeeze any information out. It got to about a week before I was due to leave, and still with no answers to basic questions, I sent an email to this list, begging for information. Eventually it was answered, but it was never put on the wiki. I spoke to some people, who don't subscribe to this list, so didn't ever receive this important information. The whole shuttle thing was a disaster. We should not have needed to sign up - just run a "shuttle" every 4 hours as stated. No where did you mention where the shuttle would be on arrival (until I explicitly asked on the list, even then it was wrong). The shuttle for me on return left at 7:30am when my flight was at 5pm. Why was there not a later shuttle? On arrival, I was with Charles Matthews, and we spent several hours waiting at the airport, then we realised we were in the wrong hall. So, after meeting with two other Wikimanians, we waited a further two hours for the shuttle, which was very late. We arrived in Alexandria at 1am-ish. I was put in a room that was a different one to the one I had been told I was in. After a very nutritious breakfast, we went to the first day of the conference bright and early. The schedule changed several times, there was a lack of plugs in the halls, and some of the talks were frankly dull (this applies to all three days). There was not really anywhere suitable to go for lunch, so we sort of sat around on the floor... not good. How did Alexandria get chosen in this respect - the social areas were basically non existent. On returning to the dorms, I found that I had to change rooms, again, still not to the one that I was put into originally. The beds were rather hard, no sheets were provided, and there was no toilet paper in the toilets (luckily I had brought my own as I imagined something as basic as that would be left out). The next two days went similarly I suppose. The end of conference party was done badly again. Why did we have to get a sticker? No one even checked I had one when I got onto the coach. The party was OK, and the food was probably the best I had the entire time I was there. I left the next day, with Brianmc (sharing a cab). We got to Cairo airport, but the wrong terminal for me. I had to make my own way to Terminal 1, after being tricked by someone into paying money I shouldn't have had to to get there. I was then harrassed by a man who claimed to be an "honest policeman" who charged me £300 EGP for the use of his cab. He wouldn't let me leave, even after I spilt water in his car. I tried to walk away, and he grabbed my arm demanding I paid him. I don't think I'd ever felt so awful in my life. It was the most horrible experience of the conference. Why are people like that allowed to roam about the airport, looking for weak, defenceless (and rich) tourists like myself? It's ridiculous. I am still struggling to see how Egypt was chosen to host Wikimania. Yes, the people at the conference were nice and friendly, and the conference was enjoyable enough, with a few minor issues, but the country itself is the worst I have ever been to. You cannot cross the road without risking being killed by the mad drivers (who beep at all hours of the day for no apparent reason). They should save painting lanes on the roads, as no one bothers following them. There was a family living in the street, the same street the BA is situated on. Just goes to show what a mix of life there is. I was so disturbed and put off by my experience of Egpyt, there is no way I'd consider going to Buenos Aires. While I'm sure they are very different places, I don't want to risk anything like the harrassment, the poor hygene, the dangerous roads and the poor organisation again. It'll be way too expensive for me as well, and I doubt I'd get a scholarship. I'd rather go somewhere closer to the UK where I live, or where the culture is more similar to here. I'm sorry my words are harsh. This is not a dig at anyone, just my honest concerns about how this whole thing turned out. I know for sure others feel the same way I do about a lot of the things I said. -- Al Tally (User:Majorly) _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

I agree with Effe iets anders, and will appreciate for comments on what we Wikimania organizers will be able to improve. Not die arme Dachlosen (they are definitely in all past Wikimania cities, not only in Alex, but in also Frankfurt am Main, etc.), not annoying greedy Egyptian people (for those purpose you are welcome to complain Egyptian Tourist policemen you could get anywhere in that country) etc. I agree those are problems and not made me happy either, but complaints on foundation-l won't help them to improve. I could have complained the worst hotel I've ever stayed but I won't, since I know it is not the right place (but if you have a plan to go to Sharm el Shake, please drop me a note!) Thanks for your pointing out,　Majorly, lack of sitting places for lunch and poor coordinated shuttle bus ideas. Thank you, Brian, for wi-fi systems. I either wasn't too much happy with some of these. I personally feel sorry we have no fixed social place in the venue and felt uncomfortable that soft drink service in the venue was not always available. We need to clear the details we require for those things I think, what the social place is, how it is organized, what level of wi-fi system we require etc. Again thanks for your input and pointing out details what didn't satisfy you. I am sure convinced the organizers for WM2009 and bidding teams for WM2010 will take your comments seriously and try to elaborate their organizing plans. But the whole situation outside of the venue is I think beyond our hands. We as jury for having selecting 2007 venue considered the general situation of hosting country and city, but it was not too much weighed. If we stick on the current criteria, it won't affect too much our selection, I presume. We welcome any suggestions, however, including the change of weighing, but personally I am not sure if the general accommodation and people's "westernization" should be our major criterion to select the venue regarding our mission to spread the knowledge to every single person on this globe. On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 3:05 AM, effe iets anders <effeietsanders(a)gmail.com> wrote: -- KIZU Naoko http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese) Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD

I suppose the key point to take from the gripes Majorly and I have posted is that you need input from people outwith the hosting country. People who have visited the country as tourists and can comment on where and how there will be attempts to take advantage of you.

Congratulations, that measured a 0.1 on the sarcasm scale. I'm 39, on my third passport, and no longer live in the country I was born and grew up in. If you took all the miles I've flown and stitched them together you could probably get to the moon and back. I know what a travel guide is, and I also know how they sugar-coat things so potential tourists don't run away screaming. Brian McNeil -----Original Message----- From: wikimania-l-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Merlijn van Deen Sent: 28 July 2008 21:06 To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Comments 2008/7/28 Brian McNeil <brian.mcneil(a)wikinewsie.org>rg>: is have will Yeah. That's called a travel guide. --valhallasw _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

2008/7/28 Al Tally <majorly.wiki(a)googlemail.com>om>: [...] Dear friends: I'm happy to see that this thread turned into a more constructive discussion about things we can do better in next wikimanias. I can't imagine how could the egyptian team change the local taxi drivers' culture just for our comfort. While we (in Argentina) are taking notes on every comment about things to do and things to improve, I'd like to say a few words, about some concepts that didn't sound well to me. I was very happy to be in Egypt. I knew (as every one of you) that the taxi drivers -and other people- would try to cheat me, that transport media would be below european standars -although the train service from Cairo to Alexandria was quite fine-, that traffic would be terrible, that poor people would be everywhere. Welcome, my friends, to the South. And I was very happy not only for the great job and friendship of the egyptian team, not only for an outstanding conference venue, but also because when we say: "a world in which every human being..." we are also talking about this people. We are talking *most of all* about this people. Of course, nobody is forced to go anywhere if is going to be uncomfortable. But you can't go to Egypt (or to South America) and complain because you didn't find the services of a Nordic country. We are taking notes and working: you'll find enough plugs in Buenos Aires, and enough wifi, and enough social room and activities... and perhaps you'll find a city that fits with most european standars (please, read [[en:Buenos Aires]] for further reference). But if you walk the city, you'll meet poor people, at night you may find families of waste pickers, you'll see homeless. Sorry about that. We are not able to hide them for you and I think we don't want to do so. So, let's talk about things we can work out. And forgive me if my words sound bitter: I just couldn't help. Patricio

I was very happy to be in Egypt. I knew (as every one of you) that the taxi drivers -and other people- would try to cheat me, that transport media would be below european standars -although the train service from Cairo to Alexandria was quite fine-, that traffic would be terrible, that poor people would be everywhere. Welcome, my friends, to the South.

We are taking notes and working: you'll find enough plugs in Buenos Aires, and enough wifi, and enough social room and activities... and perhaps you'll find a city that fits with most european standars (please, read [[en:Buenos Aires]] for further reference). But if you walk the city, you'll meet poor people, at night you may find families of waste pickers, you'll see homeless. Sorry about that. We are not able to hide them for you and I think we don't want to do so. So, let's talk about things we can work out. And forgive me if my words sound bitter: I just couldn't help.

To add to what Florence said, the opening day's press conference was one of the most professionally organised parts of the event. All the stops were pulled out to present the WMF to the press as an established and serious body. The room used for the press conference should likely have been hijacked for as many sessions as could have been fitted in it. Every desk had its own power point and an RJ45 cable to get connected with. There was a microphone with a push to talk button, and a pair of headphones. The headphones allowed for simultaneous translation from English to Arabic, and vice versa. The regional press were there in force, you could not have fitted another TV camera into the back row. If I recall correctly, Florence commented in her presentation later in the conference that some of the TV coverage prompted people to turn up at the conference's second and third days to find out more. Unfortunately, there was quite a bit of the standard fare in the Q&A - the tired old "academics don't trust Wikipedia", and the one Jimmy was quick to step on - conflating the WMF with Wikia. I can't comment on the interviews after the main press conference, unlike Florence I got some lunch on the first day. The mystery pasta dish was delicious, and I looked for it in vain the remaining two days of the conference. Brian McNeil -----Original Message----- From: wikimania-l-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Florence Devouard Sent: 29 July 2008 00:14 To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Comments I certainly was a very lucky woman, since I was *pampered* in terms of hosting and travel. So, I did not share your suffering regarding travel between the two cities. However, it seems a fair point to say that in the future, we should choose a city where there is an international airport. With regards to "outside" complaints, yeah, I was also a bit annoyed by the persistence of some people; yeah, I was cheated with regards of money several times (but I expected such thing in Egypt). I was also harassed in an unexpected fashion the last day, and I did not appreciate that at all. Airco was an issue two nights in a row and there was no wifi in hotel (but eh, that's Africa). And yeah, information was often missing. I also regret we were all hosted in many different places, which did not help finding each other. In terms of "inside" complaints, my biggest one would go to the rather unsufficient "community space" and "food/drinks". People were delocalized on several levels so it was very difficult to find each other. Unsufficient room to sit down for lunch. Worse for me: lunch separated for "vip" and "regular". That was a killer for social interactions, and vips could not go to "lunch meeting" with their lunch box since they had no lunch box. I naturally know why this was done this way. But I still find that a bad idea. I do not think we should artificially separate "vips" and "regulars". Or at least, we should be able to mix. In previous years, the press conf was followed by a lunch in the room. Not this year. Very unfortunate, because for me, it meant... no lunch at all. By the time I got out of interviews, the lunch upstairs was closed. I would suggest sticking to a very light and easy buffet after the press conference. Last, in Taipei light snacks and drinks were available all day long. This year, only tea and coffee and a few cookies, at fixed times. Often, sessions were late, so by the time one got out of the room, coffee break was over. Only once did I succeed to get an out-of-schedule coffee (the day I missed the coffee in morning, then missed the lunch, then missed the coffee break in the afternoon), but it was really tough. Until I found the source of softdrink for money, I had to drink most of my liquid input during the day from the tap. A miracle I was not sick. Still, the coffee guys were here all the time, but most of the time simply not serving. It escapes me entirely why coffee, tea and bottle water were not served freely during the entire event. Next year, we should try to be sponsored by Starbucks, as we were by CocaCola in Boston (I am SUPER serious here. We'll save huge amount of time not running to the local starbuck...). Beside this, I found all the local volunteers super useful, helpful, and smiling. A real pleasure. The party was great ! I was also very pleased by the presentation of wiki use by US gov, and really appreciated the presentation about the flaggued revisions from Philip. Rooms were confortable and of the right size (though, yeah, missing plugs), there was all the equipement for the video record, and security was not too heavy ;-) I did not miss the tech sessions... however, I missed Mark. Every Wikimania has its "very cool" and "not so good" sides. As far as I am concerned, the "very cool" have always outweighted the "not so good". What made me the saddest this year were all the people being sick during the event. I think more warning regarding food and water could have been helpful. What made me the happiest was to see that the outreach was a success. A question for the future though will be as to whether Wikimania will focus on the "outreach" or on the "community gathering". ant _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

I would not treat this as an absolute requirement, but if we must travel a significant distance from the city with the primary international airport, the difficulties of getting people to the other city need to be addressed.

I suppose the key point to take from the gripes Majorly and I have posted is that you need input from people outwith the hosting country. People who have visited the country as tourists and can comment on where and how there will be attempts to take advantage of you.

Mt. Sinai gave me a lesson; there is no special place in

Salam Khaled, Can you please send me your MObile number so I can contact you better than the emails. here is mine : 0105642546 thanks. On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 6:15 AM, Khaled Khalil <khaled.khalil(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote: