Israel = apartheid

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Re: [Wikimania-l] Boycott...

Participation of Palestinians and...

matthew satchwell

31 Mar 2011 31 Mar '11

2:50 p.m.

Please dont hold you conference in Haifa If so I will be obliged to boycott you I was brought up in South Africa -- Matthew Satchwell Box 217 Riebeek Kasteel 7307 083 6610220

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Austin Hair

31 Mar 31 Mar

3:06 p.m.

On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 1:50 PM, matthew satchwell <mattsatchwell(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Please dont hold you conference in Haifa If so I will be obliged to boycott you I was brought up in South Africa

I'm sorry we won't see you there, Matthew. Austin

Tomer Shalev

3:27 p.m.

Hello Matthew, You are most welcome to come to Haifa<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haifa#Demographics>and experience a city which is one of the last places in the middle-east where Jews, Christians, Muslims, Bahá'ís, Druze and people from other religious live in peace and harmony together. I would like to suggest that you accommodate in Haifa University dormitories<http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Accommodation/Dorms#…ms>, and conduct your own unbiased demographic survey to challenge your axioms of apartheid. I advise you to extend your stay in Israel, and visit Nazareth and other Arab cities in Israel, and also cities in the west bank: Jericho, Nablus, Bethlehem and east Jerusalem. I encourage you to be impressed by the level of freedom, education and economics of people living there, and to compare it to the level of those living in other counties in the Middle-East and Africa. I don't want to flame this discussion further, but as a Haifa citizen I couldn't leave this unanswered. Regards, Tomer Shalev On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 1:50 PM, matthew satchwell <mattsatchwell(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:

...

Please dont hold you conference in Haifa If so I will be obliged to boycott you I was brought up in South Africa -- Matthew Satchwell Box 217 Riebeek Kasteel 7307 083 6610220 _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

matthew satchwell

3:51 p.m.

Hi Tomer Are you telling me that Palestinians from the West Bank will be able to attend the conference unimpeded by the IDF at the apartheid wall? On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 2:27 PM, Tomer Shalev <shalev.tomer(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:

...

_______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

-- Matthew Satchwell Box 217 Riebeek Kasteel 7307 083 6610220

Nathan

4:02 p.m.

On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 8:51 AM, matthew satchwell <mattsatchwell(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hi Tomer Are you telling me that Palestinians from the West Bank will be able to attend the conference unimpeded by the IDF at the apartheid wall?

matthew satchwell

4:23 p.m.

This is the thing with Zionists, a questions is not answered, instead a tirade of rhetoric, except I read from your response that you do accept that there is a lack of freedom in Israel. (this is a start) On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Nathan <nawrich(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 8:51 AM, matthew satchwell <mattsatchwell(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Tomer Are you telling me that Palestinians from the West Bank will be able to attend the conference unimpeded by the IDF at the apartheid wall?

Did you happen to object when Wikimania was held in a corrupt, violent police state ruled by a dictator? Or a police state ruled by a single-party oligarchy? I don't recall hearing from you about the lack of freedom in those countries. _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

-- Matthew Satchwell Box 217 Riebeek Kasteel 7307 083 6610220

Austin Hair

6:03 p.m.

On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 3:23 PM, matthew satchwell <mattsatchwell(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

I want to start by apologizing to the other members of this list for feeding this. You talk about a lack of freedom, Matthew, but I have to wonder about your definition. I heard nothing from you when we held Wikimania in the following countries: 2005: Frankfurt, Germany, where you can be arrested for giving a Nazi salute in public or drawing a swastika. 2006: Cambridge, Massachusetts, where you can be held without trial on terrorism charges. 2007: Taipei, Taiwan, where you can be held without trial for any reason, and with which most attendees' countries have no diplomatic relations whatsoever. 2008: Alexandria, Egypt, which was a police state until just a few weeks ago. Argentina and Poland are also not exactly bastions of freedom, and there were visa issues with both conferences. That's not unreasonable, though, since every country on the planet has visa obstacles with at least one other country. Oh, wait, that's not true. There is one, and only one: the Maldives, where you can be arrested for not being Muslim. Austin

Muhammad Yahia

6:11 p.m.

2008: Alexandria, Egypt, which was a police state until just a few weeks

...

ago.

'Egypt is NOT a police state, it's the bastion of democracy.' oh wait!, Mubarak's gone now, I can talk freely :P!... You are right, go on. -- Best Regards, Muhammad Yahia

Han-Teng Liao

1 Apr 1 Apr

2:27 a.m.

"2007: Taipei, Taiwan, where you can be held without trial for any reason, and with which most attendees' countries have no diplomatic relations whatsoever." Hey, your description is not fair. In addition, individual freedom may have no direct relationship with diplomatic ties. Citations you can use http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=546&year=2010 http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=363&year=2010 Can you guys go back to the practical matters regarding visa or entry? Thank you. On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 11:03 AM, Austin Hair <adhair(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 3:23 PM, matthew satchwell <mattsatchwell(a)gmail.com> wrote:

This is the thing with Zionists, a questions is not answered, instead a tirade of rhetoric, except I read from your response that you do accept

that

there is a lack of freedom in Israel. (this is a start)

Anonyme

6:07 a.m.

I agree..Israel = apartheid... See what they did to the humanitarian aid boats towards the Gaza Strip... 2011/3/31 Han-Teng Liao <hanteng(a)gmail.com>

...

On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 3:23 PM, matthew satchwell <mattsatchwell(a)gmail.com> wrote:

This is the thing with Zionists, a questions is not answered, instead a tirade of rhetoric, except I read from your response that you do accept

that

there is a lack of freedom in Israel. (this is a start)

_______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Gerald A

31 Mar 31 Mar

4:18 p.m.

Hello, On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 8:51 AM, matthew satchwell <mattsatchwell(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:

...

Are you telling me that Palestinians from the West Bank will be able to attend the conference unimpeded by the IDF at the apartheid wall?

I'll AGF and trust that you missed the last time this was brought up, when the Organizers said they would do their utmost to ensure anyone who sought to attend would be allowed to do so, as well as extending invitations to persons who might be able to get the word out about the conference. I will also say that you seem to have scored a massive fail on the AGF, by not once but _twice_ using loaded language to advance what seems to be a clear political agenda. Kudos to the organizers for trying to steer a fine line and attempting to overcome the political issues and bring people together.

Federico Leva (Nemo)

4:21 p.m.

Tomer Shalev, 31/03/2011 14:27:

...

I advise you to extend your stay in Israel, and visit Nazareth and other Arab cities in Israel, and also cities in the west bank: Jericho, Nablus, Bethlehem and east Jerusalem.[...]

I'm not very comfortable at discussing uner this confrontational subject, but anyway, how sure are you of this, or rather, how easy do you consider it? I definitely want to do so, but e.g. the Italian Foreign Affairs Ministry advises to alert Israelian embassies and local organizations before visiting such areas because Italian visitors are often rejected at the borders before or after visiting them.[1] Nemo [1] http://www.viaggiaresicuri.it/?israele http://www.viaggiaresicuri.it/?id=275

phoebe ayers

7:01 p.m.

On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 4:50 AM, matthew satchwell <mattsatchwell(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Please dont hold you conference in Haifa If so I will be obliged to boycott you I was brought up in South Africa

I think the best possible answer to this, since you mention South Africa, is to help work on the South Africa bid for next year! http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2012/Bids/Stellenbosch Even if the bid doesn't win for 2012, you can use the experience and information you find out to try for a future year, and I know there are many Wikimedians who would love to come to SA for the conference. If the bid team has any questions about best practices there are plenty of experienced Wikimaniacs on this list. best regards, Phoebe p.s. the choice of Israel is, and will remain, controversial. I don't think we deny or want to ignore that. I can say however that I got an "advance look" at the Haifa site when I visited a few weeks ago, and I think it will be a great Wikimania; I hope that those who are able to will join us.

Harel Cain

11:09 p.m.

Well, such is our fate that every couple of months we'll get another discussion like this here, or on wikimania-planning-l or on foundation-l or on meta or on the conference wiki... I have repeatedly given very long and detailed answers to such claims on all these places, so I won't repeat them here again because really I'm getting a little tired and I have better things to do with my time to prepare Wikimania (registration, scholarships, program...). You can look them up in the archives if you're so inclined. I'll still use the opportunity to refer you to this entertaining video so that you may reconsider what you know about Israel and the preposterous claim that it practices apartheid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns2Fi2Jesg0 Israel has many political problems one could be critical of, as a result of the Arab-Israel conflict. But apartheid in its South African sense is none of them. Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 local team On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 6:01 PM, phoebe ayers <phoebe.ayers(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:

...

On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 4:50 AM, matthew satchwell <mattsatchwell(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Please dont hold you conference in Haifa If so I will be obliged to boycott you I was brought up in South Africa

-- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.

Ray Saintonge

1 Apr 1 Apr

9:59 a.m.

On 03/31/11 4:50 AM, matthew satchwell wrote:

...

Please dont hold you conference in Haifa If so I will be obliged to boycott you I was brought up in South Africa

I will attend in the spirit of openness. Even though my political views are more favorable to the Palestinians I will not use that as an excuse to miss Wikimania. I will very much avoid going to the occupied areas, but this should not prevent me from travelling within Israel's generally recognized borders. Much more can be gained and the spirit of Truth and Reconciliation better served by attending than by engaging in an utterly ignorant boycott. Ray

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participants (12)

Anonyme
Austin Hair
Federico Leva (Nemo)
Gerald A
Han-Teng Liao
Harel Cain
matthew satchwell
Muhammad Yahia
Nathan
phoebe ayers
Ray Saintonge
Tomer Shalev