On 4 October 2015 at 19:10, James Forrester <jdforrester(a)gmail.com> wrote: ​I don't mean to slight yourself, James, or the committee, but this seems an unnecessary delay. Why is this only now being communicated?​

Would it not have been wise to reveal this as it was agreed upon rather than now, after at least two bidding parties have put time and effort into their bids for 2017?

​This is true and cannot be ignored. But why, then, is "Europe" such a narrow definition? Why no provision for Eastern Europe and Russia? This seems quite disappointing given we have active affiliates in these areas.

​We should probably cut to the chase and just name the location, since by now it's common knowledge.

Other than my previous comment about the lack of inclusion of Eastern Europe—are we seriously suggesting holding one in Russia and then one in (for instance) Warsaw? That seems to defeat the point of this exercise somewhat.

On Sun, 4 Oct 2015 at 11:25 Joseph Fox <josephfoxwiki(a)gmail.com> wrote: A fair question. We spent too long discussing options rather than presenting this earlier. I'm sorry. I have discussed this change with a variety of people since at least 2007, and others were talking about it before me, but as the complexity of Wikimania rises each year it has become more chronic. As Chair of the Committee, the delay is my fault, and I apologise. I might equally ask why people not associated with running Wikimania decided the create and keep updating mistaken pages on meta about Wikimania 2017 being open for bids without even a post to this list, let alone the Committee, where we could have pointed out it was false before people spent time ill-advisedly. :-(

The large majority of our community members are based in either North The groupings are based on where the majority of Wikimedians are. They can of course change over time. I was hoping to work with fellow Wikimedians to narrow down these definitions so that it's clear for instance which group each interested community group falls.

Dear all; I suggest North Africa for 2018 (Tunisia as an example) 2015-10-04 19:10 GMT+01:00 James Forrester <jdforrester(a)gmail.com>om>: -- _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Hello James, having read your announcement, I don't really see what you would like to consult with the community and when, as the decisions seem to be made by you and "we need to select very quickly the area for 2018, and after that, 2019 and beyond." I am also surprised that e.g. Gdańsk is in "Eastern Europe". And you put it in one venue bucket with Uzbekistan for some reason. Or that you "want to ensure that, every third year, Wikimania will take place neither in Europe nor North America." Combining these two would mean we could wait for a Wikimania in Ukraine, Poland, Mexico (Northern America) or some other "Eastern European" country (whatever it means here) forever. For the future, I would like to ask you and your committee for a more careful wording and a careful definition of geographic terms you want to use. I see this is a rushed anouncement but knowing that these decisions were done 80+ days ago makes it difficult to accept. Kind Regards, Michał Buczyński WMPL, WMF FDC member Dnia 4 października 2015 20:10 James Forrester napisał(a): All, TL;DR: The Wikimania Committee and the WMF Community Engagement department will be working on coming up with a new process for venues for future Wikimanias, which we will be seeking input from the community in the next few months ------ At the Committee’s meeting in Mexico City in August, we agreed to alter the way that Wikimania locations are decided. Consequently, from now on the Committee will pick an area for Wikimania four to five years in advance, from the following (provisional) list. The years in which we have already held Wikimanias in these areas are shown in parentheses * Western, Northern, and Southern Europe (2005, 2014) * Canada and United States (2006, 2012) * Asia-Pacific (2007, 2013) * Middle East and North Africa (2008, 2011) * Latin America (2009, 2015) * Eastern Europe, Russia, and Central Asia (2010) * South Asia (none yet) * Sub-Saharan Africa (none yet) * Oceania (none yet) The Committee intends to deliberately rotate between these areas to make sure we allow as many community members to attend as cheaply as possible. The large majority of our community members are based in either North America or Europe; organising Wikimanias in these areas allows the majority of our community members to attend cheaply, so that money spent on scholarships can go further, and be more focussed in supporting our community members wherever they are based. Locating Wikimania in other continents does not assure that participants from these areas can attend more cheaply. Nevertheless, to support the movement worldwide, we do want to ensure that, every third year, Wikimania will take place neither in Europe nor North America. We propose that a sequence of "Western, Northern, and Southern Europe", "Canada and United States", and one of the others every three years, picked out several years into the future. Beyond the first two areas, we may not visit some as often as others. (I have not listed Antarctica as an area to which we will rotate, which may well be a disappointment to members of the British Antarctic Survey and others in that location.) More widely, we would like to encourage Wikimedia conferences as open, engaging and fun community meetups, alongside the annual Wikimania conference. I know that several chapters run country-specific conferences each year, which is a good move. I think that there should be at least one annual Wikimedia conference in each of these areas. This would help newer editors know that there are people like them nearby without requiring the existence of, or putting too great a demand on, every national chapter or other local affiliated body. In some areas like Africa where the distances are great, multiple regional conferences may make sense. As part of the new system of location selection, we will no longer have a 'bidding' process. Instead, the Committee invites people interested in leading or helping to run a Wikimania to contact us on-wiki <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimania>, or via the wikimania-l list. If you think that you know a great team, venue or concept for holding Wikimania, in your area or anywhere else, please discuss the possibilities with us. We will work with interested community members to narrow down the selection to a particular venue. Our next few locations will thus go like this: * 2016: Western, Northern, and Southern Europe – Esino Lario in Italy * 2017: Canada and United States – TBD * 2018: TBD – TBD * 2019: Western, Northern, and Southern Europe – TBD * 2020: Canada and United States – TBD * 2021: TBD – TBD As you can see, as well as picking the 2017 venue in Canada or the United States, for which we have a candidate lined up, we need to select very quickly the area for 2018, and after that, 2019 and beyond. There are several areas we’ve outlined above that have never had a Wikimania, and others where we have not visited for some time. We would love your thoughts on the areas on which we should focus for 2018 and beyond. We’ll also be asking in future for your thoughts about how to structure the programme of each Wikimania to make it as good as it can be for you, for others, and for our community overall. Thank you. Yours, -- James D. Forrester Chair, Wikimania Committee _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

On Sun, 4 Oct 2015 at 12:45 Lodewijk &lt;lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org&gt; wrote: As has already been stated in this thread, yes. False. We explicitly a repeatedly used the term "Canada and United States" because "North America" includes Mexico, and we didn't think that was appropriate. This is a discussion we seem to skip each year as a community - what do we If you re-read our call for input, you might see that this is precisely the question asked: We’ll also be asking in future for your thoughts about how to structure Ensuring that as many Wikimedians can come to Wikimania each year is of little value if they event isn't as useful as it can be. J. _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

On 4 Oct 2015, at 21:57, Ralf Roletschek &lt;ralf(a)roletschek.de&gt; wrote: Yes, thats right. +1 2015-10-04 22:55 GMT+02:00 Federico Leva (Nemo) &lt;nemowiki(a)gmail.com&gt;om>: -- ------ Ralf Roletschek https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ralf_Roletschek Fragen zum Fahrrad? - http://www.fahrradmonteur.de Hinweis wegen immer mehr aufkommendem Werbemüll: Alle Mails, die die Wörter "Faceb00k" oder "Twi††er" enthalten, landen bei mir ungelesen im Spam. _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

I agree that we should make rotation explicit, but that doesn't need to be done by region. We could achieve the same by requiring each bid to be a long haul flight from the previous one, and a medium haul flight from the one before. Under the region proposal we could have Amman in Asia, Cairo in Africa and Athens in Europe all within four years. Or El Paso, Texas one year and_Juarez, Chihuahua the next. I suggest that instead we make the rotation explicit by distance, 4000 miles from the preceding venue, 3,000 miles from the one before that, 2,000 from the one three years prior and 1000 from the one four years earlier. We should also have a rule that prioritises countries that welcome such events with a more open visa policy. Also if the Foundation wants to get better value for money, the venues could be determined through a commercial evaluation looking for the best value locations in the world regardless of whether or not there are locally organised wikimedians. Then get the programme determined by global volunteers. It wouldn't be too much of a burden on scholarship attendees if they got an email with their flight details asking them to volunteer to moderate or video a session. Jonathan On 4 Oct 2015, at 21:57, Ralf Roletschek &lt;ralf(a)roletschek.de&gt; wrote: Yes, thats right. +1 2015-10-04 22:55 GMT+02:00 Federico Leva (Nemo) &lt;nemowiki(a)gmail.com&gt;om>: -- ------ Ralf Roletschek https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ralf_Roletschek Fragen zum Fahrrad? - http://www.fahrradmonteur.de Hinweis wegen immer mehr aufkommendem Werbemüll: Alle Mails, die die Wörter "Faceb00k" oder "Twi††er" enthalten, landen bei mir ungelesen im Spam. _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

OK, great that you like it - but what is your argument for it? I get the arguments for measuring distance in flight cost rather than time, and I get the reasoning that conferences shouldn't be too close together. But why should a conference in China disqualify Australia? Or why should London disqualify New York? Or even Moscow? Before we start to come up with all kind of random reasonings: focus on the basics please. We want the conference to cover multiple places, be relatively as cheap as possible and also be fun to attend. Did anyone do a calculation whether holding it in an expensive city (say, London) with cheaper flights actually /is/ cheaper than holding it in a cheap city in Asia (say, Delhi or Mumbai)? And then I don't mean WMF-budget wise, but total costs: including the costs by all affiliates, and the costs privately paid for by the volunteers. I recall being positively surprised that there was very little difference between India and Berlin for the chapters meeting... Best, Lodewijk On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 3:10 AM, Gnangarra &lt;gnangarra(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

On Tue, 6 Oct 2015 at 01:59 Lodewijk &lt;lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org&gt; wrote: I've been doing this regularly for years in an *ad hoc* way. It informed the pick of areas. For example, the additional cost to the community of hosting Wikimania in Australia is (very roughly) US$1k extra per person from outside Oceania compared to the base cost, and US$1k less for each person in Oceania. At typical levels of 800 non-local self-funded attendees, of whom we have around 10 from Oceania, and 400 local people who wouldn't otherwise come at all, This means an additional community cost of ~US$750k (and a bunch more for Wikimedia organisational funds, paid directly from WMF or via the chapters) in return for the opportunity for 400 local Oceanians to attend who wouldn't otherwise have the opportunity. This is, clearly, not a completely unacceptable additional burden, but it is one we should take on carefully. By picking the venue for Wikimania we are not just 'awarding' some locals, but demanding a great many community people reach even deeper to try to attend, and for a great many, put it beyond their financial reach. Though Wikimedia organisational funds pay a huge amount for scholarships, almost entirely focussed on the less-represented countries in our community, but this does not (and cannot reasonably) cover the majority of attendees. Off the top of my head, the numbers are roughly comparable for Latin America (slightly less for Mexico), a bit lower for South Asia, Sub-Saharan Africa, and Eastern Europe/Russia/Central Asia, and lower still for Asia Pacific and the Middle East and North Africa. The numbers drift from year to year a bit, but sadly there's not much impact on the overall headline whilst the editing community is so unequally geographically distributed. This is why we included the call to area to get into the practice of having annual regional or sub-regional conferences. These would let a much larger portion of our community more easily afford to come to an in-person community event to share their passion, talk about what we can do to improve the projects, and learn new things. This is what the Wikimedia conferences, be they the global Wikimania or the regional "Wikimeetings" (people should suggest a great name!), should be about. J. _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 7:57 AM, Lodewijk &lt;lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org&gt; wrote: and I When looking for parts of a new process for Wikimania selection, I think it is worth building in a requirement that a 'regional' conference has been held in the city, or at least the country, and was successful at getting the locals ('casual' editors and non-editors alike) to walk in the doors. This would provide a clearer path towards hosting a Wikimania, allowing a lower cost event to provide a testing ground of both the organisers capabilities and local communities interest. -- John Vandenberg _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

On Tue, 6 Oct 2015 at 01:59 Lodewijk &lt;lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org&gt; wrote: pick of areas. For example, the additional cost to the community of hosting Wikimania in Australia is (very roughly) US$1k extra per person from outside Oceania compared to the base cost, and US$1k less for each person in Oceania. At typical levels of 800 non-local self-funded attendees, of whom we have around 10 from Oceania, and 400 local people who wouldn't otherwise come at all, This means an additional community cost of ~US$750k (and a bunch more for Wikimedia organisational funds, paid directly from WMF or via the chapters) in return for the opportunity for 400 local Oceanians to attend who wouldn't otherwise have the opportunity. Off the top of my head, the numbers are roughly comparable for Latin America (slightly less for Mexico), a bit lower for South Asia, Sub-Saharan Africa, and Eastern Europe/Russia/Central Asia, and lower still for Asia Pacific and the Middle East and North Africa. The numbers drift from year to year a bit, but sadly there's not much impact on the overall headline whilst the editing community is so unequally geographically distributed. This is why we included the call to area to get into the practice of having annual regional or sub-regional conferences. These would let a much larger portion of our community more easily afford to come to an in-person community event to share their passion, talk about what we can do to improve the projects, and learn new things. This is what the Wikimedia conferences, be they the global Wikimania or the regional "Wikimeetings" (people should suggest a great name!), should be about.

On Oct 4, 2015 8:10 PM, "James Forrester" &lt;jdforrester(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: department will be working on coming up with a new process for venues for future Wikimanias, which we will be seeking input from the community in the next few months the way that Wikimania locations are decided. unwieldy and hard work for the community and staff. It demands that people pour a huge amount of effort into building local teams, contracts and institutional relationships only for rejected bids' work to be left unused. A lot of pressure is put on volunteers to try to work on logistics rather than dream about what would make a great programme for our communities. Each year, the jury has to decide on a venue based on what is presented by each group divisively, rather than what we as a community could come together and build. years ahead (often only just more than twelve months in advance). This greatly increases expenses when other similar conferences plan locations out many years ahead. This makes it impossible for us to be strategic about location, prevents us from arranging co-location with like-minded conferences, and it means that some areas of the world are ignored when they could provide great Wikimanias. four to five years in advance, from the following (provisional) list. The years in which we have already held Wikimanias in these areas are shown in parentheses sure we allow as many community members to attend as cheaply as possible. America or Europe; organising Wikimanias in these areas allows the majority of our community members to attend cheaply, so that money spent on scholarships can go further, and be more focussed in supporting our community members wherever they are based. from these areas can attend more cheaply. Nevertheless, to support the movement worldwide, we do want to ensure that, every third year, Wikimania will take place neither in Europe nor North America. "Canada and United States", and one of the others every three years, picked out several years into the future. I am not convinced this is a good idea, given this definition of regions. Eastern Europe should definitely be considered along with western, southern, ... It is pretty cheap to travel there from elsewhere in europe, probably venue + accommodations are cheaper, and most important we have significant communities there with track record of organising regional conferences. I would also be tempted to include north Africa and middle east with europe. (after all, the next European hackathon is being held in Israel) I also think having wikimania in Canada + US every three years is too often. The visa process for the US is hugely annoying, difficult and results in excluding attendees. Also, while great and important to have wmf support for wikimania, imho it is important that ultimate leadership for wikimania each year is from volunteers. I am not sure the volunteer community in the US + Canada has this capacity to be lead organizer every three years. Maybe once every four years is reasonable, imho. Also, stuff like accommodations tends to be a bit expensive in the US compared to elsewhere, and flights within north America (especially Canada) are also somewhat pricey in my experience. Cheers, Katie Beyond the first two areas, we may not visit some as often as others. (I have not listed Antarctica as an area to which we will rotate, which may well be a disappointment to members of the British Antarctic Survey and others in that location.) engaging and fun community meetups, alongside the annual Wikimania conference. I know that several chapters run country-specific conferences each year, which is a good move. I think that there should be at least one annual Wikimedia conference in each of these areas. This would help newer editors know that there are people like them nearby without requiring the existence of, or putting too great a demand on, every national chapter or other local affiliated body. In some areas like Africa where the distances are great, multiple regional conferences may make sense. a 'bidding' process. Instead, the Committee invites people interested in leading or helping to run a Wikimania to contact us on-wiki, or via the wikimania-l list. If you think that you know a great team, venue or concept for holding Wikimania, in your area or anywhere else, please discuss the possibilities with us. We will work with interested community members to narrow down the selection to a particular venue. United States, for which we have a candidate lined up, we need to select very quickly the area for 2018, and after that, 2019 and beyond. There are several areas we’ve outlined above that have never had a Wikimania, and others where we have not visited for some time. We would love your thoughts on the areas on which we should focus for 2018 and beyond. We’ll also be asking in future for your thoughts about how to structure the programme of each Wikimania to make it as good as it can be for you, for others, and for our community overall. _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

All, TL;DR: The Wikimania Committee and the WMF Community Engagement department will be working on coming up with a new process for venues for future Wikimanias, which we will be seeking input from the community in the next few months ------ At the Committee’s meeting in Mexico City in August, we agreed to alter the way that Wikimania locations are decided. The existing bidding process has developed over time. It has become unwieldy and hard work for the community and staff. It demands that people pour a huge amount of effort into building local teams, contracts and institutional relationships only for rejected bids' work to be left unused. A lot of pressure is put on volunteers to try to work on logistics rather than dream about what would make a great programme for our communities. Each year, the jury has to decide on a venue based on what is presented by each group divisively, rather than what we as a community could come together and build. The process is too short-term, setting out venue much less than two years ahead (often only just more than twelve months in advance). This greatly increases expenses when other similar conferences plan locations out many years ahead. This makes it impossible for us to be strategic about location, prevents us from arranging co-location with like-minded conferences, and it means that some areas of the world are ignored when they could provide great Wikimanias. Consequently, from now on the Committee will pick an area for Wikimania four to five years in advance, from the following (provisional) list.   The years in which we have already held Wikimanias in these areas are shown in parentheses * Western, Northern, and Southern Europe (2005, 2014) * Canada and United States (2006, 2012) * Asia-Pacific (2007, 2013) * Middle East and North Africa (2008, 2011) * Latin America (2009, 2015) * Eastern Europe, Russia, and Central Asia (2010) * South Asia (none yet) * Sub-Saharan Africa (none yet) * Oceania (none yet) The Committee intends to deliberately rotate between these areas to make sure we allow as many community members to attend as cheaply as possible. The large majority of our community members are based in either North America or Europe; organising Wikimanias in these areas allows the majority of our community members to attend cheaply, so that money spent on scholarships can go further, and be more focussed in supporting our community members wherever they are based. Locating Wikimania in other continents does not assure that participants from these areas  can attend more cheaply. Nevertheless, to support the movement worldwide, we do want to ensure that, every third year, Wikimania will take place neither in Europe nor North America. We  propose that a sequence of "Western, Northern, and Southern Europe", "Canada and United States", and one of the others every three years, picked out several years into the future.I am not convinced this is a good idea, given this definition of regions. Eastern Europe should definitely be considered along with western, southern, ...  It is pretty cheap to travel there from elsewhere in europe, probably venue + accommodations are cheaper, and most important we have significant communities there with track record of organising regional conferences.

More widely, we would like to encourage Wikimedia conferences as open, engaging and fun community meetups, alongside the annual Wikimania conference. I know that several chapters run country-specific conferences each year, which is a good move. I think that there should be at least one annual Wikimedia conference in each of these areas. This would help newer editors know that there are people like them nearby without requiring the existence of, or putting too great a demand on, every national chapter or other local affiliated body. In some areas like Africa where the distances are great, multiple regional conferences may make sense. As part of the new system of location selection, we will no longer have a 'bidding' process. Instead, the Committee invites people interested in leading or helping to run a Wikimania to contact us on-wiki, or via the wikimania-l list. If you think that you know a great team, venue or concept for holding Wikimania, in your area or anywhere else, please discuss the possibilities with us. We will work with interested community members to narrow down the selection to a particular venue. Our next few locations will thus go like this: * 2016: Western, Northern, and Southern Europe – Esino Lario in Italy * 2017: Canada and United States – TBD * 2018: TBD – TBD * 2019: Western, Northern, and Southern Europe – TBD * 2020: Canada and United States – TBD * 2021: TBD – TBD As you can see, as well as picking the 2017 venue in Canada or the United States, for which we have a candidate lined up, we need to select very quickly the area for 2018, and after that, 2019 and beyond. There are several areas we’ve outlined above that have never had a Wikimania, and others where we have not visited for some time. We would love your thoughts on the areas on which we should focus for 2018 and beyond. We’ll also be asking in future for your thoughts about how to structure the programme of each Wikimania to make it as good as it can be for you, for others, and for our community overall. Thank you. Yours, -- James D. Forrester Chair, Wikimania Committee _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Hi Iolanda, This is Reem from Egypt. Thank you for your email. I'm silently following the threads of emails about this. But would you please explain to me what do you mean by the following: let’s be very clear: if the event is in Ghana, this does not mean that it I'm not sure I understand why (maybe something is lost in translation as I'm a non-native speaker of EN) ^_^ Best, Reem On 5 October 2015 at 18:58, Iolanda Pensa &lt;iolanda(a)pensa.it&gt; wrote: -- *Kind regards,Reem Al-Kashif* _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Hi joe, Thanks for you reply ^_^ I get it now. Best, Reem On 5 October 2015 at 23:38, Joseph Fox &lt;josephfoxwiki(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: -- *Kind regards,Reem Al-Kashif* _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

On 4 October 2015 at 22:01, aude &lt;aude.wiki(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: ​Likewise, accommodation in western, northern and southern Europe is also pretty expensive. I'll agree that having US/Canada hold the conference every three years is a bad idea for the community, even if convenient for the WMF and their staff.

Moving from James' idea of a three-years rotation between regions, and taking into account Katie's idea, we may define three rotating areas: * First year: Europe + Middle East + North Africa * Second year: Americas + Oceania * Third year: rest of Asia + Sub-Saharan Africa