Hi Mina,

It can always be appreciated when people engage in respectful conversations about complex issues, and I can imagine this can be uncomfortable. I would not consider myself an expert on this issue in any way, and I can't speak for the organizers. The possible encounters that you're describing in your latest email feel of a different order than the "incidients (sic) of harassment by males who identify as women" that you referred to earlier. I think with those harassment incidents, the organizers have been rather clear: harassment is unacceptable in any gender combination, in any situation. I hope this is at least clear. 

What you're describing in your more recent email sound like practices that are a bit far-fetched (I cannot recall encountering these men performing such a "frequent and non-offensive action in men's restrooms" over my many years of using men's restrooms) but I can't be certain whether this is perhaps commonplace in other settings. I'm not sure how constructive it would be to exchange references to reliable sources supporting claims whether the behavior your friend fears, indeed is at all commonplace - but I would invite you to at least reflect yourself how common these incidents are compared to equally serious incidents that do not involve any gender-identification concerns, and whether you would feel those sources are solid enough that you would feel comfortable adding them to a Wikipedia article. 

I hope you can appreciate that the organizers create a trans-inclusive environment where people don't have to rely on other peoples' judgement in deciding whether their gender is "correct" in respect to how they look. I am also assuming that any attempt to spell out a detailed policy on what is acceptable in bathrooms will quickly be met with exceptions and edge cases that will be uncomfortable to some. The more important cornerstone to me is the general Friendly Space policy and code of conduct which applies to this event: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2023:Friendly_space_policy and https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Policy:Code_of_conduct_policy . These provide general principles that you could interpret in specific situations, rather than trying to legislate every possible hypothetical. Important elements that I would consider in this case: "Be respectful in all interactions and communications. Be aware of your impact and how your contribution (messages, discussion, comments) may be affecting people. " and "Treat other people with respect". 

Finally, I find it interesting that you choose to apologize for explicit language and perhaps mistaking the name of a department, but not for the possible feelings of rejection that your email could invoke with community members that might fall under your description of "AMAB individuals who self-identify as women". I hope you can imagine this is likely an uncomfortable conversation to them at least, and acknowledging this may not be enough, but is at least a small step towards this welcoming environment for everyone. 

Best,
Lodewijk

On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 2:57 PM Mina Theofilatou <saintfevrier@gmail.com> wrote:
OK so I've finally found some time to sit at my computer and write a proper reply. I will refrain from addressing Z.'s concerns on my eligibility as a scholarship recipient (and all the related sarcasm) for Wikimania 2023 as I have already replied to that on the renamed thread "selection criteria".

I read through the comments on gender policy in this thread and I'm afraid that I will have to be somewhat explicit to get my point across.

I am 56 years old (my friend interested in attending Wikimania23 is several years older) and I have been to many conferences on four continents, I'd say over a hundred (not all Wikimedia-related of course). I am a cis-gender woman - apologies if I'm not using the right terms, until recently "woman" or "female" was enough to describe what I am - and naturally I have used dozens of women's restrooms (and locker rooms occasionally). Not once have I experienced a disturbing incident involving a man or male in a space designated for women because quite simply, I have never seen a man - a male-presenting individual, that is - using the space (except for the occasional "emergency", whereby the male uses the women's toilet and apologises for doing so if he encounters a woman while "relieving" himself. I've had to do the same on a few occasions in the men's toilets). Such was the situation in the pre-self-identification era. It is very possible that throughout the years I have encountered trans women in the women's restrooms without even being aware of it: a female-presenting trans individual in a space designated for women is naturally, perfectly acceptable and no cause for concern.

In the era of self-identification however, an individual who presents as a man - with a beard etc. features of a male physique - can self-identify as a woman (female) and proceed to use spaces designated for women. So, in the hypothetical case that this man who identifies as a woman exits the bathroom stall with his penis in his hand, shaking off the extra urine (apologies for being explicit) - a frequent and non-offensive action in men's restrooms, especially those with urinals - encounters a woman and the woman is offended, would she be entitled to express her discomfort to Trust and Safety? (apologies if the name of the dept has changed, that's the name I remember). Or would she get a reply along the lines of "we understand that you feel offended and that you experienced discomfort from the encounter, but our gender policy is self-identification and this man identifies as a woman so (s)he can use the women's restrooms and there's nothing we can do about it".

Same goes for AFAB individuals who are female-presenting but identify as men. A man using the men's toilets may feel discomfort at the sight of e.g. period blood and pads (again, apologies for the explicitness!) in a stall.

I have tried to describe the issue as respectfully as possible. Again, apologies for being explicit, it was inevitable. I do agree that *generally* Wikipedians are respectful of others and would *generally* not intentionally cause discomfort to others using gender-designated toilets - or worse yet, go so far as to harass - but if norms of common decency were self-evident to everyone, there would be no need for a Trust and Safety dept in the first place.

Best,
Mina

Χωρίς ιούς.www.avast.com

On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 8:25 AM Željko Blaće <zblace@mi2.hr> wrote:
Dear organizers - for the (self announced) transparency plan commitment of publishing list of scholarship grantees in May - it would be useful to do it at least in June as we are almost in July. 

It would also likely reduce the number of repeating questions.

Best Z. Blace

On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 7:15 AM Mohd Sayeed <sayeed8545@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Did u get the scholarship?
>
> On Sat, Jun 24, 2023, 12:05 AM Aryan Kumar Paswan <pradipguhilote@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> trip to singapore kindly share list of candidate and is it free of cost?
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2023, 22:52 Wikimania <wikimania@wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>>
>>> Many of you are starting to plan your trips, and we’ve been receiving a lot of questions related to travel to Singapore: visas, vaccines, hotels, weather… We invite you to take a look at our Travel page on the Wikimania Wiki, with subpages for e-visas, attendee information, and accommodations. Feel free to leave a message on any relevant talk pages or reach out to us at wikimania@wikimedia.org if anything is unclear or incomplete.
>>>
>>>
>>> To highlight one point–many countries are visa-free for Singapore, but everyone needs to fill out a Singapore entry card before arrival. Also Singapore requires a yellow fever vaccine from many countries–please see if yours is on the list!
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>>
>>> Butch Bustria
>>>
>>> On behalf of the Core Organizing Team
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
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