I think this is a clear demonstration that WLM is a diverse project :) You identify that having a picture for each monument is the main goal, but as you know I disagree with that: for me the competition is and will always be a tool to get more people on board, to get people aware of the fact they can contribute, and help them over the threshold. For many local competitions, it is more important however to use WLM as a community building tool. I have seen great outcomes in this field in the Middle East, where communities work together in real life for one of their first main projects, and after that continue to organize other activities as well. Best, Lodewijk On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Jane Darnell <mailto:jane023@gmail.com> 2 May 2015 13:20 I was a bit surprised to learn that Wikimedia Commons files are only "valuable" if they are explicitly used to illustrate Wikipedia articles. Though of course that is important, there are lots and lots of Wikipedia articles that link out to Commons categories too. One of the most admirable parts of the whole WLM concept is the ability of the campaign wizard to pre-sort the image files into such categories for further categorization by volunteers. That time investment would be seen as having zero value, according to the article _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org Samat <mailto:samat78@gmail.com> 2 May 2015 13:09 I aggree with both of you, these are the main goals :) (Personally I prefer Lodewijk's approach, I think community building and outreach is more important than simple content creation, at least for us.) Samat _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org Lodewijk <mailto:lodewijk@effeietsanders.org> 2 May 2015 13:02 I think this is a clear demonstration that WLM is a diverse project :) You identify that having a picture for each monument is the main goal, but as you know I disagree with that: for me the competition is and will always be a tool to get more people on board, to get people aware of the fact they can contribute, and help them over the threshold. For many local competitions, it is more important however to use WLM as a community building tool. I have seen great outcomes in this field in the Middle East, where communities work together in real life for one of their first main projects, and after that continue to organize other activities as well. Best, Lodewijk _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org Romaine Wiki <mailto:romaine.wiki@gmail.com> 2 May 2015 12:54 The focus of the evaluation is very much biased. The focus is too much on money, it gives me a horrible feeling, the community/participants are not a factory plant in what every employee needs to work a minimum number of hours. The goal of Wiki Loves Monuments is to get all monuments with a good picture on Wikipedia, not just of the most popular or easy monuments. The first time a contest as such is organised the low hanging fruits are done first, but they forget to mention that getting the low hanging fruits is not the core goal of Wiki Loves Monuments. The goal of Wiki Loves Monuments is to get a photo of every monument. The more monuments get a picture, it becomes much harder to ge a picture of the other monuments. It are too much easy thoughts without thinking it through. It is failing in describing the actual situation and misses totally what Wiki Loves Monuments is about. WMF has set some objectives for itself, and now the evaluate those objectives/goals, even while Wiki Loves Monuments has a different focus. To me the evaluation is a signal that WMF is too far away from the actual community. Romaine _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org

There is after a contest like Wiki Loves Monuments no environment at all that fits to handle all the participants and give guidance so that they can continue to be active. Those users that participated in a contest fall in a black hole afterwards. [...] What Wikipedia misses is a social environment that fits with these people and gives them stimulation.

WMF is trying to push and pull on editor retention, but that is pulling a dead horse as long as the environment is not adapted to those the

Hello Lodewijk & all, Yes we disagree on that, but that is fine. My personal goal of organising Wiki Loves Monuments is to get the cultural heritage monuments on Wikipedia with photo, and that is the actual thing that happens for sure with Wiki Loves Monuments. If other people want to set other goals, I am fine with that. But, I have analysed for myself what is to me a realistic goal, and I do only come out on having more cultural heritage monuments on Wikipedia with photos. As side effect it is fine to have more people on board, but not as main goal. Let me explain why. For me personally Wikimedia/Wikipedia is a relative nice environment as I well in easily learning myself new things and to pick up new stuff. For people who have the capability to explore the Wikimedia environment themselves, it works fine. For those people it is easy to continue after a contest with taking pictures and writing articles, because they have the capability to find those other things to do. But I think most people who have that as strong personal characteristic have already tried this and are still active or found it not interesting enough. The software and environment is excellent for those people to work with, for early adopters and pioneers. But those kind of people are almost sold out now. But still the focus is still pointed towards this kind of people. Over the past 5 years I have helped many people with editing Wikipedia and with uploading pictures to Commons, and I have spoke with a lot of people why they stopped editing Wikipedia. Almost none of those people have the capacity of exploring the environment on their own. Besides the (hostile) mentality and atmosphere on Wikipedia, the environment of Wikipedia/Wikimedia does not full-fill basic needs those people have. There is not a really friendly environment, there is no productive environment that gives sufficient stimulation, and it is not a really social environment the large majority needs. With the VisualEditor there is an easy way to edit Wikipedia for people who are not comfortably with wikisyntax, but it still lacks a social environment in what those people are comfortable. As a figure of speech: The early adopters like the assignment to build a house in the middle of the desert, the large majority wants that house already been built and wants to do the decoration only or wants a much more comfortable living. There is after a contest like Wiki Loves Monuments no environment at all that fits to handle all the participants and give guidance so that they can continue to be active. Those users that participated in a contest fall in a black hole afterwards. This is with all the contests volunteers from Wikimedia organised. But not just with contests, this is also the core problem why edit-a-thons and workshops in editing Wikipedia gives so little result in editor retention: it is going fine during the edit-a-thon and the workshop when they have a personal coach next to them to ask questions. But after the edit-a-thon or workshop, those users are on their own. Wikipedia is aiming on creating content, with all kinds of pages that try to support that. What Wikipedia misses is a social environment that fits with these people and gives them stimulation. With past edit-a-thons I noticed also another strong need with the participants. After the editing they all are interested to continue doing this together as group. Then you can say that they can use a project page on Wikipedia, but that does not work for them at all. It appears way too primitive for them. WMF is trying to push and pull on editor retention, but that is pulling a dead horse as long as the environment is not adapted to those the people. And please understand me well: I consider it as the most important to get more people on board, but with the current environment it seems to me to be unrealistic to have a big influence on this. And yes, I think it is great all the organising teams have done so much work. All the organisers have achieved something really great. <- This is actually something I miss as well in this "evaluation". Romaine 2015-05-02 14:02 GMT+02:00 Lodewijk &lt;lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org <mailto:lodewijk@effeietsanders.org>>: I think this is a clear demonstration that WLM is a diverse project :) You identify that having a picture for each monument is the main goal, but as you know I disagree with that: for me the competition is and will always be a tool to get more people on board, to get people aware of the fact they can contribute, and help them over the threshold. For many local competitions, it is more important however to use WLM as a community building tool. I have seen great outcomes in this field in the Middle East, where communities work together in real life for one of their first main projects, and after that continue to organize other activities as well. Best, Lodewijk On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Romaine Wiki &lt;romaine.wiki(a)gmail.com <mailto:romaine.wiki@gmail.com>> wrote: The focus of the evaluation is very much biased. The focus is too much on money, it gives me a horrible feeling, the community/participants are not a factory plant in what every employee needs to work a minimum number of hours. The goal of Wiki Loves Monuments is to get all monuments with a good picture on Wikipedia, not just of the most popular or easy monuments. The first time a contest as such is organised the low hanging fruits are done first, but they forget to mention that getting the low hanging fruits is not the core goal of Wiki Loves Monuments. The goal of Wiki Loves Monuments is to get a photo of every monument. The more monuments get a picture, it becomes much harder to ge a picture of the other monuments. It are too much easy thoughts without thinking it through. It is failing in describing the actual situation and misses totally what Wiki Loves Monuments is about. WMF has set some objectives for itself, and now the evaluate those objectives/goals, even while Wiki Loves Monuments has a different focus. To me the evaluation is a signal that WMF is too far away from the actual community. Romaine 2015-05-02 13:26 GMT+02:00 Lodewijk &lt;lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org <mailto:lodewijk@effeietsanders.org>>: Hi all, it seems that the WMF evaluation department has once again put together an evaluation of Wiki Loves Monuments. Out of curiosity, were any of the organizers involved in this? A quick glance suggests some factual errors, and again a big focus on assuming WLM is a consistent project, that is similar in each country (while in reality it is a diverse collection of projects, tailored to the needs of each country, by its community) and with a focus towards number crunching. Statements that begin with 'the average Wiki Loves Monuments implementation/contest' make my eyes bleed... Did anyone make a more thorough analysis of the report? Best, Lodewijk _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org

Lodewijk <mailto:lodewijk@effeietsanders.org> 2 May 2015 13:11 Thanks for spotting, Michael. I don't seem to be able to find the list of countries however, this is somewhat hidden. Where did you locate it? It is quite crucial for understanding... Another very practical mishap I note: for the retention, they only seem to consider Commons... which is odd. I would definitely include /all projects/ for this! In earlier evaluations, these numbers proved to be much higher, which makes sense as most of these people are only occasional photographers, and their actual interest lies in the content (monuments, art, etc). Again assumptions. _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org Michael Maggs <mailto:Michael@maggs.name> 2 May 2015 13:01 For some reason the 2014 WLM contest in the UK has not been included in the reported data. Michael _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org

To be fair, https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Evaluation/Evaluation_reports/2015/W… was useful for me to quickly extract a couple trivia/curiosities. Other than that, I agree I wouldn't know how to use it for any meaningful evaluation, at least for the purposes I had when volunteering for WLM-IT. I didn't expect that though; defining the goals of WLM-IT and assessing our progress against them has always been our own burden that nobody can help with (especially given the very peculiar situation with Codice Urbani).

To specify what I am saying: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Evaluation/Evaluation_reports/2015/W… In the paragraph "Content Production and Quality Improvement" it's not mentioned any paragraph about the quality of the photos. It's a photo contest and the photo contest gives a prize to the best photos not to the biggest uploaders. This is an example of divergence between the real aim of the projects and the measures of the evaluation. Probably there is a misunderstanding in same place. A god shot of a professional artist doesn't cost 0.90 dollars. To measure the success the best approach is to consider that a god shot can costs around 50-100 dollars. Replying to people that agree that the measure is to cover articles, I agree with them but I also agree that there is no sense to have bad photos even if these photos are not "descriptive". Regards On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 9:46 AM, Ilario Valdelli &lt;valdelli(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: -- Ilario Valdelli Wikimedia CH Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera Switzerland - 8008 Zürich Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario> Skype: valdelli Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli> Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli> Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469> Tel: +41764821371 http://www.wikimedia.ch _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org

It's un unclear. A god shot on the market costs more than 50 dollars. Everything in high quality is a benefit. So the aim is not to calculate a cost per shot but the relation costs benefits. Basically the delta. If there is the need to evaluate the success considering the poor relation costs per upload, there is no sense to have a photo contest. An editathon will produce more results. Il 05/Mag/2015 12:21, "Ivo Kruusamägi" &lt;ivo.kruusamagi(a)gmail.com&gt; ha scritto:

I believe that calculation is unfair because it prejudices communities where free knowledge isn't widely accepted as well as countries which have limited Internet penetration. Just a general statement. *ROEL BALINGIT* *Treasurer* *______________________________________________________________* *WIKIMEDIA PHILIPPINES* *G/F Gervacia Center, 152 Amorsolo Street, Legaspi Village, 1229 Makati City* *T: +63-2-8123277 | F: +63-2-8127177 | M: +63-917-8807635 * *W: **www.wikimedia.org.ph <http://www.wikimedia.org.ph/> | E: roel.balingit(a)wikimedia.org.ph &lt;roel.balingit(a)wikimedia.org.ph&gt;* ******************************************************************* ******************************************** This e-mail is confidential. It may also be legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you may not copy, forward, disclose or use any part of it. If you have received this message in error, please delete it and all copies from your system and notify the sender immediately by return e-mail. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be timely, secure, error or virus-free. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions. ******************************************************************* ******************************************** On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 8:08 PM, Ilario Valdelli &lt;valdelli(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org

Hi Roel, See my response: On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 5:12 AM, Roel Balingit < roel.balingit(a)wikimedia.org.ph&gt; wrote: This is really great to hear from your perspective. We totally acknowledge that there are differences! The report is a first step to learning about the programs looking at some metrics globally. The next step is to do interviewers with people from all over to learn the best practices in different contexts, and share them in the form of a toolkit. -- Edward Galvez Program Evaluation Associate Wikimedia Foundation _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org