According to the official it is a mistake, they are not really monuments but archaeological sites although they are classified in the inventory as monuments. However his selection is not based on this argument but in order to protect homeowners and heritage sites that lack of protection in rural areas. Some examples discarded by him: http://www.menorcaweb.net/arqueologia/menorca%20ing/arqmi82.htm http://www.menorcaweb.net/arqueologia/menorca%20ing/arqmi55.htm http://www.menorcaweb.net/arqueologia/menorca%20ing/arqmi234.htm Morever, there are some coves carved on cliffs that I can hardly consider as monuments. Most of them were included in the inventory in 1966, and from 1998 they are managed by the Island Council. Probably they should review the classification as monuments or archaeological sites. Maybe it is a good idea to add whether they are publicly accessible or in restricted areas with a warning advice. Vicenç From: lodewijk(a)effeietsanders.org Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 01:42:53 +0100 Subject: Re: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Provoking spolation To: wikilovesmonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org CC: vriullop(a)hotmail.com Hi, I am not sure I understand your explanation correctly, so let me try to summarize and correct me if I am wrong please. If I understand well, you say that out of the 1000 monuments, all are real monuments, but that the government official suggests to leave out 935 of them because they are on private property - not because it is a mistake. I agree with him that it is important to be careful about private property - this goes everywhere in Europe. We should make clear notices how to work with private property, and how to ask permission of the owner. That is more a matter of communication than a fundamental one. And even if people can't make photos, the owners could theoretically still upload a photo, so I think if they are real monuments, they could be in the list - maybe in a special header with a seperate table? Best, Lodewijk 2011/2/24 Vicenç Riullop <vriullop(a)hotmail.com> We have encountered an unexpected problem with monuments of Minorca (http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llista_de_monuments_de_Menorca). There are about 1,000 monuments, most of them of Talayotic culture (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talaiotic_Cultura), possibly with an unclear demarcation between the categories of monument and archaeological area, two of the categories defined for Bien de Interés Cultural (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bien_de_Inter% C3% A9s_Cultural). We have contacted with the person in charge of heritage in the island council asking for help to identify them and locate them as the online register only contains the name and little else. His answer is that we must limit to 65 monuments that are accessible to the public. The reason is that most are on private lands and they want to avoid spolation. He recognizes out of the record that most are not monuments. I think they probably lack of protection and I know the islanders are very sensitive that tourists do not invade private lands. As a Wikipedian I can not accept it. The register of monuments is public information, monuments are protected by law, we can not redefine if a monument should be in the arqueological area category and we can not limit the information based on problems or interests of the administration. But from WLM viewpoint, probably it is not appropiate causing problems and perhaps it makes nonsense to suggest participants to go to inaccessible places to take photos of ruins or caves or to suggest them monuments that we can not correctly identify. Moroever, the amount of 65 would be within the Spanish average. I am confused with this. Any suggestions? Vicenç _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu

Not sure what spolation in the original post means, but I suppose it is ruining the monuments, right? My two cents on the matter: I have some experience doing fieldwork in Portugal and Spain during my PhD. I was looking for amphibians, and the best place to find them is in small ponds, usually man made, intended to make potable water available for cattle or to water the crops. Most of these are in private property. In some cases, it was easy to ask someone in the vicinity who the field belonged too (usually the exact person we found, or a close relative), but in other places, there was no one to be found in a 10 km radius. In these cases, we would usually go in anyway (not that I recommend it) and explain ourselves if someone came by asking what we were doing. Depending on the height of the fence, the normal reactions would go from curiosity to threats to call the police (not that anyone did, after we explain what we were doing or left the premisses). It also helped that we had a permit from the National Nature Conservation Institute to capture the animals. In addition, in Portugal, hunters are permitted to cross fences up to 3 meters without permission in designated hunting areas, during hunting days. In other words, now your local legislation about trespassing, talk to local people and land owners and explain clearly what your intentions are. The national WLM pages should perhaps mention something on the lines off: "Beware that some monuments are located in private property. Be sure to ask for permission to land owners before entering private land and taking photographs." Gonçalo

We've had a sort of problem like this in the Netherlands with bunkers. In the Netherlands there are people actively digging open bunkers to search for treasures (some people died when the sand went over the bunker again). For this reason the RCE (the monument service from the governement) has published wrong coordinates of these bunkers, we've back then decided to just copy their wrong coördinates, or to add no coördinates to the lists. Another thing is monuments on private property: We've added them in the lists on the wiki: they are monuments and the info is also interesting without a picture. For the WLM-contest it's important to tell the photographers that they have to mind the local rules: If the building is on private land you can't take pictures without permission from the landowner. Lots of people are very interested when their doorbell is rang with the question whether somebody is allowed to take pictures from their barn in the backyard, some of the landowners tell wonderfull stories, others just say no, and that's to be accepted. Mvg, Bas From: vriullop(a)hotmail.com To: wikilovesmonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 14:21:37 +0000 Subject: Re: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Provoking spolation Spoliation (I mistyped it) is the legal term used by the official. I do not know if it is accurate in English. I understand it as robbery or spoiling. He considers his information as reserved in order to protect the sites or the owners, and he is horrified that we publish the coordinates of each site found on other sources or with the help of local users. I have checked the applicable law and really some information of heritage databases may be restricted for this purpose. He probably thinks this is a Wikileaks-like problem. IMHO, if their location is published on other sources then this is not our concern. I agree we must be cautious and we probably will split them into diferents tables or tag them somehow, but this is not easy in Wikipedia without verificable sources. Vicenç From: goethe.wiki(a)gmail.com Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 12:15:05 +0100 To: wikilovesmonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Provoking spolation Not sure what spolation in the original post means, but I suppose it is ruining the monuments, right? My two cents on the matter: I have some experience doing fieldwork in Portugal and Spain during my PhD. I was looking for amphibians, and the best place to find them is in small ponds, usually man made, intended to make potable water available for cattle or to water the crops. Most of these are in private property. In some cases, it was easy to ask someone in the vicinity who the field belonged too (usually the exact person we found, or a close relative), but in other places, there was no one to be found in a 10 km radius. In these cases, we would usually go in anyway (not that I recommend it) and explain ourselves if someone came by asking what we were doing. Depending on the height of the fence, the normal reactions would go from curiosity to threats to call the police (not that anyone did, after we explain what we were doing or left the premisses). It also helped that we had a permit from the National Nature Conservation Institute to capture the animals. In addition, in Portugal, hunters are permitted to cross fences up to 3 meters without permission in designated hunting areas, during hunting days. In other words, now your local legislation about trespassing, talk to local people and land owners and explain clearly what your intentions are. The national WLM pages should perhaps mention something on the lines off: "Beware that some monuments are located in private property. Be sure to ask for permission to land owners before entering private land and taking photographs." Gonçalo _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu _______________________________________________ Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list WikiLovesMonuments(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu

Hello Vincenc, I find that very important what you say. A flyer or brochure would be useful, telling the participants what to do and what not to do, that we want to do everything with respect to and in peace with the local people. In the Netherlands and in Germany there is no problem taking pictures of buildings, at least not from a pedestrian walk (freedom of panorama). I don't know whether this is a problem in other countries? Kind regards Ziko 2011/2/26 Vicenç Riullop <vriullop(a)hotmail.com>om>: -- Ziko van Dijk The Netherlands http://zikoblog.wordpress.com/