I agree about keeping the ID's on the pictures - for the Netherlands, whenever I sort a WLM picture into a category I copy the template to the category for browsing convenience, but I certainly never remove it from the picture. We *want* those tags on the picture so people can easily look for pictures by ID number. And there are still a lot of pictures from last year to put in categories by the way, in case anyone is interested!


2011/8/3 GoEthe.wiki <goethe.wiki@gmail.com>
Hi, Nuno.
I don't think removing the IGESPAR template from files makes sense even if there is a category for the object.
Note that the template can be changed so that it shows a different text and categorize it differently if it is included in different domains.
I already did a few changes to the template so that it only includes the [[Category:Cultural heritage monuments in Portugal with known IDs]] in file pages.

This makes sure that the same template can be used for your issue 1. and the issue 2. It also means that we can change the {{IGESPAR}},  {{SIPA}}, whatever, to have similar behaviour in file pages in order to categorize in the same top-level category. I don't think there is a problem to have a file both down the category tree and in a over-arching category with all photos.

Best,
Gonçalo




2011/8/3 Nuno Tavares <nuno.tavares@wikimedia.pt>
Hello all,

I didn't quite get the beginning of this thread, but I have some remarks
from what I understand. First of all, there seem to be two issues here:

1. Organization issue: Having a category tree to allow browsing by
"ID-enabled" images (in WLM-PT we have linked commons categories with
object ids whenever possible);

2. Convenience issue: Having a specific category for images of country
objects to pass on to the jury, as a pool of candidates.

Jane, the unfortunate part is that I've been removing the {{IGESPAR}}
template from all images I've found whenever there is a category for the
"objects" in question (or one that I have created for that purpose).
That's what makes sense to me, anyway, but doesn't invalidate having
whatever top-categories - in this case, "Cultural heritage monuments in
Portugal with known IDs" (it would aggregate
{{IGESPAR}}+{{DRAC-RAM}}+{{DRAM-RAA}} then, although I'm (lazily) using
Category:IGESPAR for that.

Lodewijk, complementing, the country-specific category could be fetched
from the parameters passed to the form, right? I believe we already
agreed on passing an ID and a Country.

Susana, I actually believe we should categorize a lot! See:
- Images_from_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2011, for those who want to dig into
*all* images from *all* contries - like Europeana's Art Noveau Juri;
- Images_from_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2011_Portugal, for Portuguese Juri;
- Imóveis_de_Interesse_Público_in_Lisbon (replace "Imóveis de Interesse
Público" and "Lisbon" accordingly) to keep up with the current category
structure, which is IGESPAR related.
- Campo_Pequeno - which is the building category;
- IGESPAR - inherited from {{IGESPAR}} (and due to my laziness, DRAC-RAM
and DRAC-RAA) which is used to tag an ID into the picture (or category).
- Up to now, I'm expected that the categories get automatically placed,
either from the form, or a post-bot-run. Eventually there are others:
manually inserted, like "Palaces in Portugal", and those related to
geolocalization that don't interfere with anything, I believe.

In short, Jane and Susana, I wouldn't mix {{IGESPAR}} and
{{Images_from_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2011_Portugal}} purposes. The former
is for keeping a link between the lists, and the second is for the Juri.

You can imagine how the bottom of the page will look, though :)


Béria, just a note regarding SIPA and IGESPAR: only IGESPAR's objects
have some kind of protection; this means SIPA's shouldn't have
designations like "Monumento Nacional". In the end, roughly, all SIPA
are "unprotected".

This also means the everyone relying to IGESPAR id should be clarified
by now: the monument ID is a specific WLM id. Its range will dictate to
which it refers to: IGESPAR, Azores, Madeira or SIPA.



--
Nuno Tavares
Wikimedia Portugal
http://www.wikimedia.pt

Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que
estamos a fazer.

Participe também: http://www.wikimedia.pt

Em 03-08-2011 09:53, Lodewijk escreveu:
> There should be country specific subcategories there indeed - you are
> correct :) I suggest putting this category /in/ your country specific
> contest template. Not sure if someone already designed one actually to
> be re-used. Besides that I believe there are some temporary categories
> involved, like "needs to be included in the lists" etc which involved
> more manual work but can be done by anyone who knows Wikipedia.
>
> Best,
> Lodewijk
>
> 2011/8/3 Susana Morais <susana.morais@wikimedia.pt
> <mailto:susana.morais@wikimedia.pt>>
>
>     Hello all,
>
>     I have some questions. For the WLM competition we will ask the
>     participant to upload the photo with the ID number (he has
>     previously seen in that great list we have in our site :)). Then the
>     photo will be automatically (?) tagged under a specific sub-cat in
>     this
>     category http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Images_from_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2011,
>     right? Do the categories need to be more specific for the
>     competition (this doenst mean we shouldnt be thinking how to
>     organize them better after the wlm)? I think that it is easier
>     during the WLM to have all photos in the competition in one simple
>     category (easier for the jury).
>
>     Susana
>
>
>     2011/8/3 Jane Darnell <jane023@gmail.com <mailto:jane023@gmail.com>>
>
>         Béria,
>         The key here is the word "monument". In order for a WLM
>         participant to upload a photo based on local instructions, he
>         needs an ID number. Presumeably he/she has found this number
>         from your wonderful Portuguese map with ID coordinates on your
>         WLM website, am I right?
>
>         In the Netherlands, some (not ALL) Rijksmonuments have the
>         number physically on a brown plaque on the building itself. What
>         do you call this number? I assume you do not call it "Cultural
>         heritage monument number". In order to match it to either the
>         IGESPAR or SIPA numbers you will need to have a key in the ID
>         number, won't you?
>
>         I noticed the following situation:
>         http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Campo_Pequeno_Lisboa
>         is tagged with the template {{IGESPAR|74571|type=IIP}}
>         I would therefore expect to see this category have photo's
>         tagged with this same number, but for example,
>         http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Campo_Pequeno_lisbon.JPG
>         is not tagged.
>         I would expect the category to be placed in a category called
>         "Category:IGESPAR objects in Lisbon (district)", but I see the
>         category "Category:Imóveis de Interesse Público in Lisbon
>         (district)" instead.
>
>         I suppose the template sub-tag "IIP" stands for "Imóveis de
>         Interesse Público", so I get that you have broken your
>         designations down by type, but I am curious how you will
>         instruct the jury to choose foto's if the photo's themselves are
>         not tagged. Though my Portuguese is pretty bad, I think the
>         (spectacular) pictures of the bulls themselves, which are also
>         in that category are not "Imóveis".
>
>         Jane
>
>         2011/8/3 Béria Lima <beria.lima@wikimedia.pt
>         <mailto:beria.lima@wikimedia.pt>>
>
>             We have lists outside IGESPAR. The IGESPAR one has 4K
>             monuments, the SIPA one almost 40K. We are using both.
>             _____
>             /Béria Lima/
>             Wikimedia Portugal <http://wikimedia.pt>
>             (351) 963 953 042
>
>             /Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a
>             possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o
>             conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a fazer./
>
>
>             On 3 August 2011 08:39, Jane Darnell <jane023@gmail.com
>             <mailto:jane023@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>                 Béria,
>                 Maybe I am just too unfamiliar with the technicalities,
>                 but my feeling would be yes, stuff all 4 categories into
>                 "IGESPAR objects in Portugal with known IDs". Under this
>                 toplevel, there should be for example, a category called
>                 "Monumentos Nacionais with known IDs".
>
>                 Is there a problem with the WLM database that you can't
>                 have subcategories for the top-level ones? Or do you
>                 mean that you have lists outside of IGESPAR?
>
>                 Jane
>
>
>                 2011/8/2 Béria Lima <beria.lima@wikimedia.pt
>                 <mailto:beria.lima@wikimedia.pt>>
>
>                     Portugal can't use a single name. We have 4 types of
>                     monuments ( see here:
>                     http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2011_in_Portugal
>                     ).
>
>                     We can create 4 "main categories", but they would
>                     still need to be under a "Cultural Heritage in
>                     Portugal" category.
>                     _____
>                     /Béria Lima/
>                     Wikimedia Portugal <http://wikimedia.pt>
>                     (351) 963 953 042
>
>                     /Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a
>                     possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de
>                     todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a
>                     fazer./
>
>
>
>                     On 2 August 2011 11:11, Kilian Kluge
>                     <kilian@k-kluge.de <mailto:kilian@k-kluge.de>> wrote:
>
>                         Hi Jane,
>
>                         in Germany the trouble is that in every state
>                         there are different names for essentially the
>                         same thing. Some just have "Kulturdenkmale"
>                         (cultural heritage monuments), some have
>                         "Baudenkmale" ("building heritage monuments"),
>                         some have both, some differentiate between three
>                         or four categories... It's already a bit
>                         confusing on de-wp, where as a result the lists
>                         for each state have different naming schemes,
>                         and I doubt that it'd be helpful to carry this
>                         to Commons.
>
>                         Kilian
>
>                         On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 7:55 AM, Jane Darnell
>                         <jane023@gmail.com <mailto:jane023@gmail.com>>
>                         wrote:
>
>                             Hi all,
>                             I am sending out a new message, since I feel
>                             this issue is pretty important and impacts a
>                             lot of Wikipedia projects. The other issues
>                             that Bas addressed also need follow up, but
>                             let's tackle these categories first.
>
>                             This is the list of categories as they stand
>                             today on Commons in the top level category
>                             (see the email from Bas):
>                             Category:Cultural heritage monuments in
>                             Andorra with known IDs
>                             Category:Cultural heritage monuments in
>                             Austria with known IDs
>                             Category:Onroerend erfgoed with known IDs
>                             Category:Cultural heritage monuments in
>                             Brussels with known IDs
>                             Category:Cultural heritage monuments in
>                             Estonia (with known IDs)
>                             Category:Cultural heritage monuments in
>                             Hesse with known ID
>                             Category:Rijksmonumenten with known IDs
>                             Category:Cultural heritage monuments in
>                             Portugal with known IDs
>                             Category:Cultural heritage monuments in
>                             Romania with known IDs
>                             Category:Cultural heritage monuments in
>                             Spain with known IDs
>                             Category:Cultural heritage monuments in
>                             Wallonia with known IDs
>
>                             I think only the Belgians and the Dutch have
>                             chosen their names well, because they are
>                             using the terms that are covered by law in
>                             their country. The other categories should
>                             be renamed to reflect the legal term in
>                             those countries. My reasons are as follows:
>                             1) The term "Cultural heritage monument" is
>                             not defined anywhere, in any country's
>                             wikipedia.
>                             2) We are using a formal designation that
>                             has been assigned by a government agency and
>                             is covered by the European Council's
>                             international law on cultural property. In
>                             order to refer to the proper designation, we
>                             need the formal name of the designation.
>                             3) The sub categories are going to have
>                             native names anyway, so why have a strangely
>                             named top-level category that no one
>                             understands (including English-speakers)?
>                             4) When we make interwiki links to these
>                             things we should be consistent across all
>                             countries.
>
>                             I noticed a confusing situation has already
>                             occurred in the German Wikipedia, where the
>                             top level category for the Austrian
>                             monuments is "Kategorie:Liste
>                             (Kulturdenkmale in Österreich)", when I
>                             fully expected it to be
>                             "Kategorie:Denkmalgeschütztes Objekte". On
>                             Commons I would expect
>                             "Category:Denkmalgeschütztes Objekte with
>                             known IDs", and in the English Wikipedia, I
>                             named it "Category:Denkmalgeschütztes Objekte".
>
>                             Jane
>
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