> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 12:02:27 +0100
> From: nuno.tavares@wikimedia.pt
> To: wikilovesmonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wiki Loves Monuments] Top level Commons categories per country
>
> OK, I don't want to insist on this, but let me state my opinion.
>
> The way I see it, having a category full of unsorted images is of no use
> for anyone, except for the jury, which will use it *once*. I can't
> imagine why a "Commons user" would go to [[Category:Cultural heritage
> monuments in Portugal with known IDs]] to find any image - although I
> understand its usage-principle for "Commons operators", though.
>
> Every other usage (like getting the images for a particular ID) can
> always be a join of:
> * All File: that has the ID
> * Plus: all File: in the categories that have the ID.
>
>
> Jane, about that categorization, I have always expected to be automatic,
> but got a bit surprised about the "no database access" news. In any
> case, they can always be categorized with a bot that does something like
> this:
>
> * Get all images by ID; For each image: create/get a category based on
> the object name, put all images in there, remove the ID and whatever is
> commons. And no, I'm not forgetting about disambiguations :-)
>
> Eventually, I'll make a bot for that, so I might help you with yours
> later if you want to follow this approach.
>
> --
> Nuno Tavares
> Wikimedia Portugal
> http://www.wikimedia.pt
>
> Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
> livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que
> estamos a fazer.
>
> Participe também: http://www.wikimedia.pt
>
> Em 03-08-2011 11:47, Jane Darnell escreveu:
> > I agree about keeping the ID's on the pictures - for the Netherlands,
> > whenever I sort a WLM picture into a category I copy the template to the
> > category for browsing convenience, but I certainly never remove it from
> > the picture. We *want* those tags on the picture so people can easily
> > look for pictures by ID number. And there are still a lot of pictures
> > from last year to put in categories by the way, in case anyone is
> > interested!
> >
> >
> > 2011/8/3 GoEthe.wiki <goethe.wiki@gmail.com <mailto:goethe.wiki@gmail.com>>
> >
> > Hi, Nuno.
> > I don't think removing the IGESPAR template from files makes sense
> > even if there is a category for the object.
> > Note that the template can be changed so that it shows a different
> > text and categorize it differently if it is included in different
> > domains.
> > I already did a few changes to the template so that it only includes
> > the [[Category:Cultural heritage monuments in Portugal with known
> > IDs]] in file pages.
> >
> > This makes sure that the same template can be used for your issue 1.
> > and the issue 2. It also means that we can change the {{IGESPAR}},
> > {{SIPA}}, whatever, to have similar behaviour in file pages in order
> > to categorize in the same top-level category. I don't think there is
> > a problem to have a file both down the category tree and in a
> > over-arching category with all photos.
> >
> > Best,
> > Gonçalo
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2011/8/3 Nuno Tavares <nuno.tavares@wikimedia.pt
> > <mailto:nuno.tavares@wikimedia.pt>>
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I didn't quite get the beginning of this thread, but I have some
> > remarks
> > from what I understand. First of all, there seem to be two
> > issues here:
> >
> > 1. Organization issue: Having a category tree to allow browsing by
> > "ID-enabled" images (in WLM-PT we have linked commons categories
> > with
> > object ids whenever possible);
> >
> > 2. Convenience issue: Having a specific category for images of
> > country
> > objects to pass on to the jury, as a pool of candidates.
> >
> > Jane, the unfortunate part is that I've been removing the
> > {{IGESPAR}}
> > template from all images I've found whenever there is a category
> > for the
> > "objects" in question (or one that I have created for that purpose).
> > That's what makes sense to me, anyway, but doesn't invalidate having
> > whatever top-categories - in this case, "Cultural heritage
> > monuments in
> > Portugal with known IDs" (it would aggregate
> > {{IGESPAR}}+{{DRAC-RAM}}+{{DRAM-RAA}} then, although I'm
> > (lazily) using
> > Category:IGESPAR for that.
> >
> > Lodewijk, complementing, the country-specific category could be
> > fetched
> > from the parameters passed to the form, right? I believe we already
> > agreed on passing an ID and a Country.
> >
> > Susana, I actually believe we should categorize a lot! See:
> > - Images_from_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2011, for those who want to
> > dig into
> > *all* images from *all* contries - like Europeana's Art Noveau Juri;
> > - Images_from_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2011_Portugal, for Portuguese
> > Juri;
> > - Imóveis_de_Interesse_Público_in_Lisbon (replace "Imóveis de
> > Interesse
> > Público" and "Lisbon" accordingly) to keep up with the current
> > category
> > structure, which is IGESPAR related.
> > - Campo_Pequeno - which is the building category;
> > - IGESPAR - inherited from {{IGESPAR}} (and due to my laziness,
> > DRAC-RAM
> > and DRAC-RAA) which is used to tag an ID into the picture (or
> > category).
> > - Up to now, I'm expected that the categories get automatically
> > placed,
> > either from the form, or a post-bot-run. Eventually there are
> > others:
> > manually inserted, like "Palaces in Portugal", and those related to
> > geolocalization that don't interfere with anything, I believe.
> >
> > In short, Jane and Susana, I wouldn't mix {{IGESPAR}} and
> > {{Images_from_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2011_Portugal}} purposes. The
> > former
> > is for keeping a link between the lists, and the second is for
> > the Juri.
> >
> > You can imagine how the bottom of the page will look, though :)
> >
> >
> > Béria, just a note regarding SIPA and IGESPAR: only IGESPAR's
> > objects
> > have some kind of protection; this means SIPA's shouldn't have
> > designations like "Monumento Nacional". In the end, roughly, all
> > SIPA
> > are "unprotected".
> >
> > This also means the everyone relying to IGESPAR id should be
> > clarified
> > by now: the monument ID is a specific WLM id. Its range will
> > dictate to
> > which it refers to: IGESPAR, Azores, Madeira or SIPA.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Nuno Tavares
> > Wikimedia Portugal
> > http://www.wikimedia.pt
> >
> > Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade
> > de ter
> > livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso
> > o que
> > estamos a fazer.
> >
> > Participe também: http://www.wikimedia.pt
> >
> > Em 03-08-2011 09:53, Lodewijk escreveu:
> > > There should be country specific subcategories there indeed -
> > you are
> > > correct :) I suggest putting this category /in/ your country
> > specific
> > > contest template. Not sure if someone already designed one
> > actually to
> > > be re-used. Besides that I believe there are some temporary
> > categories
> > > involved, like "needs to be included in the lists" etc which
> > involved
> > > more manual work but can be done by anyone who knows Wikipedia.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Lodewijk
> > >
> > > 2011/8/3 Susana Morais <susana.morais@wikimedia.pt
> > <mailto:susana.morais@wikimedia.pt>
> > > <mailto:susana.morais@wikimedia.pt
> > <mailto:susana.morais@wikimedia.pt>>>
> > >
> > > Hello all,
> > >
> > > I have some questions. For the WLM competition we will ask the
> > > participant to upload the photo with the ID number (he has
> > > previously seen in that great list we have in our site
> > :)). Then the
> > > photo will be automatically (?) tagged under a specific
> > sub-cat in
> > > this
> > > category
> > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Images_from_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2011,
> > > right? Do the categories need to be more specific for the
> > > competition (this doenst mean we shouldnt be thinking how to
> > > organize them better after the wlm)? I think that it is easier
> > > during the WLM to have all photos in the competition in
> > one simple
> > > category (easier for the jury).
> > >
> > > Susana
> > >
> > >
> > > 2011/8/3 Jane Darnell <jane023@gmail.com
> > <mailto:jane023@gmail.com> <mailto:jane023@gmail.com
> > <mailto:jane023@gmail.com>>>
> > >
> > > Béria,
> > > The key here is the word "monument". In order for a WLM
> > > participant to upload a photo based on local
> > instructions, he
> > > needs an ID number. Presumeably he/she has found this
> > number
> > > from your wonderful Portuguese map with ID coordinates
> > on your
> > > WLM website, am I right?
> > >
> > > In the Netherlands, some (not ALL) Rijksmonuments have the
> > > number physically on a brown plaque on the building
> > itself. What
> > > do you call this number? I assume you do not call it
> > "Cultural
> > > heritage monument number". In order to match it to
> > either the
> > > IGESPAR or SIPA numbers you will need to have a key in
> > the ID
> > > number, won't you?
> > >
> > > I noticed the following situation:
> > >
> > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Campo_Pequeno_Lisboa
> > > is tagged with the template {{IGESPAR|74571|type=IIP}}
> > > I would therefore expect to see this category have photo's
> > > tagged with this same number, but for example,
> > >
> > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Campo_Pequeno_lisbon.JPG
> > > is not tagged.
> > > I would expect the category to be placed in a category
> > called
> > > "Category:IGESPAR objects in Lisbon (district)", but I
> > see the
> > > category "Category:Imóveis de Interesse Público in Lisbon
> > > (district)" instead.
> > >
> > > I suppose the template sub-tag "IIP" stands for
> > "Imóveis de
> > > Interesse Público", so I get that you have broken your
> > > designations down by type, but I am curious how you will
> > > instruct the jury to choose foto's if the photo's
> > themselves are
> > > not tagged. Though my Portuguese is pretty bad, I
> > think the
> > > (spectacular) pictures of the bulls themselves, which
> > are also
> > > in that category are not "Imóveis".
> > >
> > > Jane
> > >
> > > 2011/8/3 Béria Lima <beria.lima@wikimedia.pt
> > <mailto:beria.lima@wikimedia.pt>
> > > <mailto:beria.lima@wikimedia.pt
> > <mailto:beria.lima@wikimedia.pt>>>
> > >
> > > We have lists outside IGESPAR. The IGESPAR one has 4K
> > > monuments, the SIPA one almost 40K. We are using both.
> > > _____
> > > /Béria Lima/
> > > Wikimedia Portugal <http://wikimedia.pt>
> > > (351) 963 953 042
> > >
> > > /Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a
> > > possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de
> > todo o
> > > conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a fazer./
> > >
> > >
> > > On 3 August 2011 08:39, Jane Darnell
> > <jane023@gmail.com <mailto:jane023@gmail.com>
> > > <mailto:jane023@gmail.com
> > <mailto:jane023@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Béria,
> > > Maybe I am just too unfamiliar with the
> > technicalities,
> > > but my feeling would be yes, stuff all 4
> > categories into
> > > "IGESPAR objects in Portugal with known IDs".
> > Under this
> > > toplevel, there should be for example, a
> > category called
> > > "Monumentos Nacionais with known IDs".
> > >
> > > Is there a problem with the WLM database that
> > you can't
> > > have subcategories for the top-level ones? Or
> > do you
> > > mean that you have lists outside of IGESPAR?
> > >
> > > Jane
> > >
> > >
> > > 2011/8/2 Béria Lima <beria.lima@wikimedia.pt
> > <mailto:beria.lima@wikimedia.pt>
> > > <mailto:beria.lima@wikimedia.pt
> > <mailto:beria.lima@wikimedia.pt>>>
> > >
> > > Portugal can't use a single name. We have
> > 4 types of
> > > monuments ( see here:
> > >
> > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2011_in_Portugal
> > > ).
> > >
> > > We can create 4 "main categories", but
> > they would
> > > still need to be under a "Cultural Heritage in
> > > Portugal" category.
> > > _____
> > > /Béria Lima/
> > > Wikimedia Portugal <http://wikimedia.pt>
> > > (351) 963 953 042
> > >
> > > /Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer
> > pessoa a
> > > possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao
> > somatório de
> > > todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que
> > estamos a
> > > fazer./
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 2 August 2011 11:11, Kilian Kluge
> > > <kilian@k-kluge.de
> > <mailto:kilian@k-kluge.de> <mailto:kilian@k-kluge.de
> > <mailto:kilian@k-kluge.de>>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Jane,
> > >
> > > in Germany the trouble is that in
> > every state
> > > there are different names for
> > essentially the
> > > same thing. Some just have
> > "Kulturdenkmale"
> > > (cultural heritage monuments), some have
> > > "Baudenkmale" ("building heritage
> > monuments"),
> > > some have both, some differentiate
> > between three
> > > or four categories... It's already a bit
> > > confusing on de-wp, where as a result
> > the lists
> > > for each state have different naming
> > schemes,
> > > and I doubt that it'd be helpful to
> > carry this
> > > to Commons.
> > >
> > > Kilian
> > >
> > > On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 7:55 AM, Jane
> > Darnell
> > > <jane023@gmail.com
> > <mailto:jane023@gmail.com> <mailto:jane023@gmail.com
> > <mailto:jane023@gmail.com>>>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > > I am sending out a new message,
> > since I feel
> > > this issue is pretty important and
> > impacts a
> > > lot of Wikipedia projects. The
> > other issues
> > > that Bas addressed also need
> > follow up, but
> > > let's tackle these categories first.
> > >
> > > This is the list of categories as
> > they stand
> > > today on Commons in the top level
> > category
> > > (see the email from Bas):
> > > Category:Cultural heritage
> > monuments in
> > > Andorra with known IDs
> > > Category:Cultural heritage
> > monuments in
> > > Austria with known IDs
> > > Category:Onroerend erfgoed with
> > known IDs
> > > Category:Cultural heritage
> > monuments in
> > > Brussels with known IDs
> > > Category:Cultural heritage
> > monuments in
> > > Estonia (with known IDs)
> > > Category:Cultural heritage
> > monuments in
> > > Hesse with known ID
> > > Category:Rijksmonumenten with
> > known IDs
> > > Category:Cultural heritage
> > monuments in
> > > Portugal with known IDs
> > > Category:Cultural heritage
> > monuments in
> > > Romania with known IDs
> > > Category:Cultural heritage
> > monuments in
> > > Spain with known IDs
> > > Category:Cultural heritage
> > monuments in
> > > Wallonia with known IDs
> > >
> > > I think only the Belgians and the
> > Dutch have
> > > chosen their names well, because
> > they are
> > > using the terms that are covered
> > by law in
> > > their country. The other
> > categories should
> > > be renamed to reflect the legal
> > term in
> > > those countries. My reasons are as
> > follows:
> > > 1) The term "Cultural heritage
> > monument" is
> > > not defined anywhere, in any country's
> > > wikipedia.
> > > 2) We are using a formal
> > designation that
> > > has been assigned by a government
> > agency and
> > > is covered by the European Council's
> > > international law on cultural
> > property. In
> > > order to refer to the proper
> > designation, we
> > > need the formal name of the
> > designation.
> > > 3) The sub categories are going to
> > have
> > > native names anyway, so why have a
> > strangely
> > > named top-level category that no one
> > > understands (including
> > English-speakers)?
> > > 4) When we make interwiki links to
> > these
> > > things we should be consistent
> > across all
> > > countries.
> > >
> > > I noticed a confusing situation
> > has already
> > > occurred in the German Wikipedia,
> > where the
> > > top level category for the Austrian
> > > monuments is "Kategorie:Liste
> > > (Kulturdenkmale in Österreich)",
> > when I
> > > fully expected it to be
> > > "Kategorie:Denkmalgeschütztes
> > Objekte". On
> > > Commons I would expect
> > > "Category:Denkmalgeschütztes
> > Objekte with
> > > known IDs", and in the English
> > Wikipedia, I
> > > named it
> > "Category:Denkmalgeschütztes Objekte".
> > >
> > > Jane
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > > Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> > >
> > WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
> > <mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org>
> > >
> > <mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
> > <mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org>>
> > >
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> > > http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > >
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> > <mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org>>
> > >
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> > > http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > >
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> > <mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org>>
> > >
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> > > http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > > <mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
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> > >
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > <mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
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> > >
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> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > > <mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
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> > >
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> > > http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > <mailto:WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
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> > >
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> > > http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > > http://www.wikilovesmonuments.eu
> >
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> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
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