Vicki Rosenzweig wrote: I think if you put a dozen grammarians in a room and ask them about this, you're going to end up with a fight. =] I do think it was standard to use "he" at one time -- you'd hardly find anything else in 19th-century writing -- but it's not any longer. Many people also dislike "they", because it's using plural forms (both the plural pronoun, and to be consistent, plural verbs) to refer to a single person. Those people seem to be losing that particular battle though. As of late I've noticed in much academic writing a preferred solution has been to simply use "she". It's not really any better than using "he" as far as correctness goes, but people are less likely to complain about it being sexist, so it has taken off especially in fields that have traditionally been criticized for excluding women, such as philosophy and computer science. I do find it somewhat jarring when I read it though, as I'm used to "she" being used to refer to people who are actually female, so it takes me a minute to realize from context that it's being used as a generic pronoun. Sort of along the same lines, but not particularly jarring, is using female examples when making up fictional people to explain a point. I've also noticed somewhat humorously that it's become common when making up fictional dialogues in philosophy to make the "reasonable" side be female, and make the "wrong" side be male. I suppose doing it in the reverse would lead to charges of sexism. In any case that was a bit of rambling, but I find this all very interesting. -Mark

Delirium wrote: well "you" is singular and plural. So why not another pronoun? well the trick with using "she" is to use "she" AND "he" approximately equally. Just pick one at random! now you know how female readers feel.... ;-)

On Thursday, July 17, 2003, at 09:58 PM, Michael Becker wrote: Well, I suppose there's always this... http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sie_and_hir I'm not sure that I've seen this in actual use more than twice, though :-) -- Benjamin D. Esham { http://bdesham.net bdesham(a)iname.com } AIM: bdesham 1 2 8

Dante Alighieri wrote: Well, to some people it seems ungrammatical, since "they" hasn't been used as a singular pronoun until very recently, so you end up with the "wrong" verb tenses. So when you say something like "They fall asleep as they watch TV," it sounds very much like you're talking about multiple people. -Mark

Delirium wrote: Not really, because you wouldn't use it without establishing a context first. Thus something like: The student fell asleep as they were watching TV. or: As for the student, they fell asleep as they were watching TV. which is unambiguous. I really don't know why I said this, because after all that happened with RK and stuff, the least I want on this list now is a "singular they yes or no" debate, but ... Timwi

Vicki Rosenzweig wrote: Yes, I was aware of Jane Austen, but she was very much an exception -- the vast majority of writers used "generic he" throughout the 18th and 19th centuries, and through most of the 20th. I think Samuel Taylor Coleridge may be the one other notable exception. It is also true, as Dante Alighieri pointed out, that "singular they" was used in the 16th century and through some of the 17th. But medieval English usage is hardly a good guide for modern English usage. That's certainly true. I personally try to avoid using either construction, rewording sentences when possible, because "generic he" strikes me as old-fashioned, while "singular they" strikes me as overly colloquial. -Mark

--- steve vertigo <utilitymuffinresearch(a)yahoo.com> wrote: okokokokok please, call me "he" rather than using a language I can not understand :) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com

--- steve vertigo <utilitymuffinresearch(a)yahoo.com> wrote: I may read that yes "soeur", which would be fine sv ;-) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com

steve- God, someone had to bring up Spivak pronouns. I think the discussion usually ends at this point. Regards, Erik