What thread are you speaking of? Have you really been attacked as a woman authority figure on-wiki by anyone other than vandals? I mean, I wouldn't be surprised, but I don't think I've ever seen any cases of outright misogyny. Usually people are too focused on the faggot, N-bomb, commie-pinko, faggot, nerd, faggot, loser vein to bother to say "get back in the kitchen, stupid woman". Or maybe it's that there are so few female Wikipedians that it hasn't had the opportunity to crop up yet...which might be even worse an issue, imo On 8/28/07, Durova <nadezhda.durova(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > In respect to a thread here and a recent private discussion I'll highlight > the valuable side effects of misogyny. > > *Misogyny discredits the individual who possesses it.* From a distance it > may not be obvious which side of a dispute can supply better evidence, > but open bigotry sure as heck is obvious. > > *Misogyny relieves me of regrets.* Sometimes I second guess myself after > I > use the sysop tools. A sexist quip clears my conscience. I go away happy > to be the sysop and equally happy the fellow is blocked or banned. > > *Misogyny is the perfect troll. * I'm not above a little *schadenfreude*; > I > think it's hilarious. Misogyny generates misery among a certain set of > people who are basically unpleasant anyway and wastes huge amounts of > their > time and energy. Best of all, I break zero rules and keep all my online > buddies while they make themselves despised and sometimes even endanger > their careers. >

Don't be so quick to judge. I didn't say it didn't exist. I said I didn't know what incident she was talking about, and I couldn't think of any examples of blatant misogyny on-wiki from personal experience. Don't assume my experience encompasses everything on-wiki, and certainly not what you or anyone else has. I didn't say a "pimpmasta123" name or a pimp userbox wasn't misogynist, I said I'd never heard of it. On 8/28/07, K P <kpbotany(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On 8/28/07, Steven Walling <steven.walling(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > What thread are you speaking of? Have you really been attacked as a > woman > > authority figure on-wiki by anyone other than vandals? I mean, I > wouldn't be > > surprised, but I don't think I've ever seen any cases of outright > misogyny. > > Usually people are too focused on the faggot, N-bomb, commie-pinko, > faggot, > > nerd, faggot, loser vein to bother to say "get back in the kitchen, > stupid > > woman". Or maybe it's that there are so few female Wikipedians that it > > hasn't had the opportunity to crop up yet...which might be even worse an > > issue, imo > > > > On 8/28/07, Durova <nadezhda.durova(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > In respect to a thread here and a recent private discussion I'll > highlight > > > the valuable side effects of misogyny. > > > > > > *Misogyny discredits the individual who possesses it.* From a > distance it > > > may not be obvious which side of a dispute can supply better evidence, > > > but open bigotry sure as heck is obvious. > > > > > > *Misogyny relieves me of regrets.* Sometimes I second guess myself > after > > > I > > > use the sysop tools. A sexist quip clears my conscience. I go away > happy > > > to be the sysop and equally happy the fellow is blocked or banned. > > > > > > *Misogyny is the perfect troll. * I'm not above a little > *schadenfreude*; > > > I > > > think it's hilarious. Misogyny generates misery among a certain set > of > > > people who are basically unpleasant anyway and wastes huge amounts of > > > their > > > time and energy. Best of all, I break zero rules and keep all my > online > > > buddies while they make themselves despised and sometimes even > endanger > > > their careers. > > > > > Oh please, calling oneself a pimp as a user name and saying, "Gotta > keep the pimp hand strong" is about as misogynist as it gets. Oh, > wait, it goes one better. There's a "this user is a pimp" user box. > I put it on my user page along with a thousand others, and no one > gives a shit. It's cute and something that boys do, and all the boy's > friends will slam down anyone who objects to the boy proudly > displaying his misogyn--so I found out. > > KP >

K P wrote: This says more about the evolution of language. Words adapt to the circumstances that use them. When you judge the word on the basis of the minority that flaunt it isn't that being just a little misandrian. Sure men look on these things differently, and wonder what all the fuss was about when women want to dwell upon something that was never intended. Being offended by the activities of the traditional pimp should not be equated with being offended by the use of the word. Sounds like a normal kid. (age? - mine is 17) Then too dealing with real pimps has probably not been part of his personal experiences. It should tell you something that the majority of persons who have been elected the the Board by the community have been women. That's a neat trick to come from an electorate so full of misogynists. I don't doubt that you have frequently encountered language on the part of others which you consider misogynistic. If it's coming from those "least likely to encounter it" you have disconnect more than you have misogyny. Not everybody is at the same place in the spectrum of gender politics. Those of us with experience in female dominated circumstances are not overly concerned about the gender of the person across the table from us. He or she is simply what he or she is. Gender relations falls apart when you start imputing misogynistic motives that were never there. Ec

On 8/31/07, Florence Devouard <Anthere9(a)yahoo.com> wrote: [snip] The second "memory hole" (in the black t-shirt) seems to be Nina Gerlach (I *think* but I'm not sure if this is http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Nina). I can't make out who is in the blue top, to Delphine's left.

On misogyny and sexism as engrained practices - it's still quite a sorry state of the world - I wonder if the Wikichix group has developed any resources for the wider community to ponder, and to take action?

Cormac _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Why is that that women seem to drift away from editing proper, to deal with more "organization" matters ? Less bullshit probably. Less agressivity. Smaller groups where people know each other. Hard to say. But in the organization proper, I would say there is no mysogyny. If you want to join and help, there is a LOT to do :-) Ant

Ray Saintonge wrote: It's no wonder there are so few women in the upper echelons on Wikipedia, imo, in a culture that is so damn accepting and ignorant of how it makes women outsiders.

I will not comment on the "few women in the upper echelons of Wikipedia", but I can comment on the "very numerous women in the upper echelons of the Foundation".

Why is that that women seem to drift away from editing proper, to deal with more "organization" matters ? Less bullshit probably. Less agressivity. Smaller groups where people know each other. Hard to say.

But in the organization proper, I would say there is no mysogyny. If you want to join and help, there is a LOT to do :-)

Ray Saintonge wrote: No way ! Ec, I have met you three times already, and I am pretty sure you are a guy, even though your gentleness is to be noted :-) (/me runs away)

On 8/28/07, Steven Walling <steven.walling(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Don't be so quick to judge. I didn't say it didn't exist. I said I didn't > know what incident she was talking about, and I couldn't think of any > examples of blatant misogyny on-wiki from personal experience. Don't assume > my experience encompasses everything on-wiki, and certainly not what you or > anyone else has. I didn't say a "pimpmasta123" name or a pimp userbox wasn't > misogynist, I said I'd never heard of it. > > On 8/28/07, K P <kpbotany(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On 8/28/07, Steven Walling <steven.walling(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > What thread are you speaking of? Have you really been attacked as a > > woman > > > authority figure on-wiki by anyone other than vandals? I mean, I > > wouldn't be > > > surprised, but I don't think I've ever seen any cases of outright > > misogyny. > > > Usually people are too focused on the faggot, N-bomb, commie-pinko, > > faggot, > > > nerd, faggot, loser vein to bother to say "get back in the kitchen, > > stupid > > > woman". Or maybe it's that there are so few female Wikipedians that it > > > hasn't had the opportunity to crop up yet...which might be even worse an > > > issue, imo > > > > > > On 8/28/07, Durova <nadezhda.durova(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > In respect to a thread here and a recent private discussion I'll > > highlight > > > > the valuable side effects of misogyny. > > > > > > > > *Misogyny discredits the individual who possesses it.* From a > > distance it > > > > may not be obvious which side of a dispute can supply better evidence, > > > > but open bigotry sure as heck is obvious. > > > > > > > > *Misogyny relieves me of regrets.* Sometimes I second guess myself > > after > > > > I > > > > use the sysop tools. A sexist quip clears my conscience. I go away > > happy > > > > to be the sysop and equally happy the fellow is blocked or banned. > > > > > > > > *Misogyny is the perfect troll. * I'm not above a little > > *schadenfreude*; > > > > I > > > > think it's hilarious. Misogyny generates misery among a certain set > > of > > > > people who are basically unpleasant anyway and wastes huge amounts of > > > > their > > > > time and energy. Best of all, I break zero rules and keep all my > > online > > > > buddies while they make themselves despised and sometimes even > > endanger > > > > their careers. > > > > > > > > Oh please, calling oneself a pimp as a user name and saying, "Gotta

You also might be less likely to be sensitive to it for obvious reasons. There are many things that men simply don't look twice at, that many women would find misogynist because they look at it from a different angle. I don't find the turning of "pimp" into an acceptable verb to be acceptable, mostly because the men who flaunt it seem to be using it in the old and more familiar sense, and are just taking advantage of, or lying about, its meaning in the vernacular. But many men I know who I don't think are misogynists, don't see anything offensive with "pimp my ride." My son for example doesn't find the expression "pimp my ride" and related expressions offensive, and thinks I'm over-reacting that I do find them offended--"It's the vernacular, Mom, that language you adore." Yet, he considers it offensive to call someone a pimp as a compliment.