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Help needed for helpdesk-l

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Cormac Lawler

16 Oct 2005 16 Oct '05

12:35 p.m.

Hi, Since the helpdesk-l address was made more instantly visible, there has been a surge of questions to the list - of a wide range of queries/problems/issues. Your help would be appreciated. You can subscribe at http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/helpdesk-l Thanks, Cormac / Cormaggio

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Timwi

25 Oct 25 Oct

7:11 p.m.

Since the helpdesk-l address was made more instantly visible, there has been a surge of questions to the list - of a wide range of queries/problems/issues. Your help would be appreciated. You can subscribe at http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/helpdesk-l

I'm glad to hear my help would be appreciated, but I'm unwilling to help if there is no newsgroup (preferrably Gmane) mirroring the mailing list. I've asked for one before and just got a "no"; I've also applied directly at Gmane and not received a response. Under these circumstances, I cannot offer my help. Timwi

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Phil Boswell

26 Oct 26 Oct

11:23 a.m.

"Timwi" <timwi(a)gmx.net> wrote in message news:djlp2a$anh$1@sea.gmane.org...

Since the helpdesk-l address was made more instantly visible, there has been a surge of questions to the list - of a wide range of queries/problems/issues. Your help would be appreciated. You can subscribe at http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/helpdesk-l

I'm glad to hear my help would be appreciated, but I'm unwilling to help if there is no newsgroup (preferrably Gmane) mirroring the mailing list. I've asked for one before and just got a "no"; I've also applied directly at Gmane and not received a response. Under these circumstances, I cannot offer my help.

Try: gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.helpdesk Seems to be working for me OK. HTH HAND -- Phil [[en:User:Phil Boswell]]

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Alphax (Wikipedia email)

12 Nov 12 Nov

11:31 a.m.

Cormac Lawler wrote:

Hi, Since the helpdesk-l address was made more instantly visible, there has been a surge of questions to the list - of a wide range of queries/problems/issues. Your help would be appreciated. You can subscribe at http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/helpdesk-l

To add to this: The moderation queue is being cleaned out, so there are a *lot* of new messages to answer. You can subscribe to the list at: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/helpdesk-l Or by sending an email to: helpdesk-l-request(a)Wikimedia.org?subject=subscribe Thanks, -- Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia "We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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Timwi

12:18 p.m.

[about helpdesk-l]

The moderation queue is being cleaned out, so there are a *lot* of new messages to answer. You can subscribe to the list at: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/helpdesk-l

A mailing list is chronically unsuitable for the task that helpdesk-l is trying to solve. In order to answer someone's question everyone has to remember to send the reply back to the user and not just to the list. Potential follow-ups from that user then go to the answerer and not to the mailing list. There is no real way to get a glimpse of what queries are as yet unanswered. Since anyone can subscribe to the list and reply to questions, and replies cannot be edited by other users, the requestor has no way of knowing how authoritative or accurate the answer is. A lesser problem is the potential of the user receiving several (possibly contradicting) replies from different users. An issue-tracking system would be vastly more appropriate. Perhaps best would be a system like LiveJournal Support, or perhaps exactly that system. The system knows what requests are answered and unanswered (open and closed), the question and the answer(s) can be seen on one page, the user's follow-up reply is on the same page, etc.etc. Just a thought. If people in general are happy with the mailing list, then of course I won't intervene and let you use it. But I won't help answer questions there. Timwi

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Alphax (Wikipedia email)

12:45 p.m.

Timwi wrote:

[about helpdesk-l]

The moderation queue is being cleaned out, so there are a *lot* of new messages to answer. You can subscribe to the list at: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/helpdesk-l

A mailing list is chronically unsuitable for the task that helpdesk-l is trying to solve. In order to answer someone's question everyone has to remember to send the reply back to the user and not just to the list. Potential follow-ups from that user then go to the answerer and not to the mailing list. There is no real way to get a glimpse of what queries are as yet unanswered. Since anyone can subscribe to the list and reply to questions, and replies cannot be edited by other users, the requestor has no way of knowing how authoritative or accurate the answer is. A lesser problem is the potential of the user receiving several (possibly contradicting) replies from different users. An issue-tracking system would be vastly more appropriate. Perhaps best would be a system like LiveJournal Support, or perhaps exactly that system. The system knows what requests are answered and unanswered (open and closed), the question and the answer(s) can be seen on one page, the user's follow-up reply is on the same page, etc.etc.

Ah, you want Bugzilla! :) (Why go for a proprietary solution when a free one will work just as well! And even if LiveJournal Support *is* free, we already use Bugzilla and know how to set it up and use it...) -- Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia "We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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Timwi

3:05 p.m.

Ah, you want Bugzilla! :) (Why go for a proprietary solution when a free one will work just as well! And even if LiveJournal Support *is* free, we already use Bugzilla and know how to set it up and use it...)

LiveJournal Support is free software. Bugzilla is notoriously unusable for non-technical users. And it's not designed for support requests, anyway. Timwi

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Wikiacc

13 Nov 13 Nov

1:39 a.m.

On 11/12/05, Timwi <timwi(a)gmx.net> wrote:

Bugzilla is notoriously unusable for non-technical users.

You mean users who can't read instructions carefully [1]. If you look for the right buttons everything is fairly easy (this is coming from a moderately technical user). [1] I know people like that--a link will be right in front of their face and they'll ask, "Where's the link?" -- --~~~~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Wikiacc

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Timwi

2:04 p.m.

Bugzilla is notoriously unusable for non-technical users.

You mean users who can't read instructions carefully [1]. If you look for the right buttons everything is fairly easy (this is coming from a moderately technical user).

No offense, but this sounds like you have little experience in user interface design. Users are not unable to read instructions, but rather unwilling. A really good user interface doesn't need any instructions.

[1] I know people like that--a link will be right in front of their face and they'll ask, "Where's the link?"

It is right in front of *your* face because you know the interface. It is pointless (and arrogant) to point fingers at these people and mock *them* as stupid when it is obviously the user interface that is failing and that needs to be improved so that more people will find the link. Why are we discussing this anyway? Would you seriously consider using BugZilla as a professional corporate customer support platform? Would you think many customers would be happy if some company did? If the answers to these are "yes", then you must have really low expectations. If the answers are "no", but you would still use it for Wikipedia, then you have some really weird kind of logic. Timwi

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Jtkiefer

14 Nov 14 Nov

4:52 a.m.

We definitely need some sort of ticketing system since this is getting ridiculous (164 unread messages and at least a couple hundred messages in the moderation queue). If possible I'd suggest something that's easier to use then the bugzilla system but unlike the OTRS system it should be something that is open and that anyone can jump in and help on. It should also be something that's easily ticket based and searchable so that people can pull up old requests if they want. -Jtkiefer

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Sam Korn

7:34 p.m.

On 11/14/05, Jtkiefer <jtkiefer(a)wordzen.net> wrote:

We definitely need some sort of ticketing system since this is getting ridiculous (164 unread messages and at least a couple hundred messages in the moderation queue). If possible I'd suggest something that's easier to use then the bugzilla system but unlike the OTRS system it should be something that is open and that anyone can jump in and help on. It should also be something that's easily ticket based and searchable so that people can pull up old requests if they want.

This sounds to me like a good use of PHPbb. I am strongly against the use of this for general Wikipedia talk, but it seems a useful idea for this case. I'll host a test forum on my own server if this would be appreciated. Does the Foundation have a problem with using this software? Sam

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Angela

22 Nov 22 Nov

12:48 a.m.

On 11/15/05, Sam Korn <smoddy(a)gmail.com> wrote:

This sounds to me like a good use of PHPbb. I am strongly against the use of this for general Wikipedia talk, but it seems a useful idea for this case. I'll host a test forum on my own server if this would be appreciated. Does the Foundation have a problem with using this software?

It's free software, so it wouldn't be something the Foundation objects to. Whether it's something any developers are prepared to maintain is another matter. Angela

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Brion Vibber

1:02 a.m.

Angela wrote:

On 11/15/05, Sam Korn <smoddy(a)gmail.com> wrote:

This sounds to me like a good use of PHPbb. I am strongly against the use of this for general Wikipedia talk, but it seems a useful idea for this case. I'll host a test forum on my own server if this would be appreciated. Does the Foundation have a problem with using this software?

It's free software, so it wouldn't be something the Foundation objects to. Whether it's something any developers are prepared to maintain is another matter.

As I recall PHPBB has a bad reputation for security. I would strongly prefer not to run it on our servers. -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

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Sam Korn

13 Nov 13 Nov

3:07 p.m.

On 11/13/05, Wikiacc <wikiacc(a)gmail.com> wrote:

[1] I know people like that--a link will be right in front of their face and they'll ask, "Where's the link?"

cf the number of people emailing various mailing lists to report errors and vandalism on the site: they miss the numerous edit buttons. Sam

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Alphax (Wikipedia email)

3:41 p.m.

Sam Korn wrote:

On 11/13/05, Wikiacc <wikiacc(a)gmail.com> wrote:

[1] I know people like that--a link will be right in front of their face and they'll ask, "Where's the link?"

cf the number of people emailing various mailing lists to report errors and vandalism on the site: they miss the numerous edit buttons.

Also "How do I reference your site" and "can I use your materials"... -- Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia "We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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Sam Korn

3:44 p.m.

On 11/13/05, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Also "How do I reference your site" and "can I use your materials"...

Although the links to that are somewhat less blatant... Sam

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Jimmy Wales

2:31 a.m.

We use otrs for this sort of thing. Timwi wrote:

Ah, you want Bugzilla! :) (Why go for a proprietary solution when a free one will work just as well! And even if LiveJournal Support *is* free, we already use Bugzilla and know how to set it up and use it...)

LiveJournal Support is free software. Bugzilla is notoriously unusable for non-technical users. And it's not designed for support requests, anyway. Timwi _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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Timwi

5:58 p.m.

Jimmy Wales wrote:

We use otrs for this sort of thing.

Who or what are "we"?

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Sam Korn

6:02 p.m.

On 11/13/05, Timwi <timwi(a)gmx.net> wrote:

Jimmy Wales wrote:

We use otrs for this sort of thing.

Who or what are "we"?

The Wikimedia Foundation, presumably. Sam

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Timwi

6:33 p.m.

Sam Korn wrote:

On 11/13/05, Timwi <timwi(a)gmx.net> wrote:

Jimmy Wales wrote:

We use otrs for this sort of thing.

Who or what are "we"?

The Wikimedia Foundation, presumably.

So where does the Wikimedia Foundation have its installation of OTRS, why don't I know about it, where are all the links to it, and why does helpdesk-l still exist? Timwi

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Sam Korn

7:04 p.m.

On 11/13/05, Timwi <timwi(a)gmx.net> wrote:

So where does the Wikimedia Foundation have its installation of OTRS, why don't I know about it, where are all the links to it, and why does helpdesk-l still exist?

Helpdesk-l was created to be a sort of open version. In my opinion, it failed. For the other questions, see other emails. Sam

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Delphine Ménard

8:05 p.m.

On 11/13/05, Timwi <timwi(a)gmx.net> wrote:

So where does the Wikimedia Foundation have its installation of OTRS,

On its servers. See the address.

why don't I know about it,

Because it was not advertised in the right places? Because you didn't look in the right places? I'd say both. where are all the links to it, and why does

helpdesk-l still exist?

This was answered by Sam. Delphine -- ~notafish

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Delphine Ménard

6:46 p.m.

On 11/13/05, Sam Korn <smoddy(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Jimmy Wales wrote:

We use otrs for this sort of thing.

Who or what are "we"?

The Wikimedia Foundation, presumably.

More here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/PR_department Cheers, Delphine -- ~notafish

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Timwi

6:55 p.m.

Delphine Ménard wrote:

On 11/13/05, Sam Korn <smoddy(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Jimmy Wales wrote:

We use otrs for this sort of thing.

Who or what are "we"?

The Wikimedia Foundation, presumably.

More here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/PR_department

Thanks, found the link to the OTRS -- but it asked me for a username/password, didn't accept my normal Wikipedia log-in, and didn't provide a mean to create a new account. How are users supposed to ask a question on this? Timwi

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Sam Korn

7:01 p.m.

On 11/13/05, Timwi <timwi(a)gmx.net> wrote:

Thanks, found the link to the OTRS -- but it asked me for a username/password, didn't accept my normal Wikipedia log-in, and didn't provide a mean to create a new account. How are users supposed to ask a question on this?

info-en(a)wikimedia.org per [[Wikipedia:Contact us]] Sam

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Delphine Ménard

7:08 p.m.

On 11/13/05, Timwi <timwi(a)gmx.net> wrote:

More here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/PR_department

Thanks, found the link to the OTRS -- but it asked me for a username/password, didn't accept my normal Wikipedia log-in, and didn't provide a mean to create a new account. How are users supposed to ask a question on this?

A question on what? On the OTRS self, or about Wikipedia/media? The meta page lists all the contacts. All of the "departments" listed there are <insert-prefix-listed-on-meta-page-here>(a)wikimedia.org or wikipedia.org addresses, advertised on various wikis and places and end up on the OTRS. If you are ready to help and want an account there, ask the people in charge of the queue you can help with (ie. probably info-en in your case). Enquiries ending up in the OTRS vary from "we'd like to give you a million servers" to "Have you noticed your site is editable?". In between, the usual copyvios and libel claims... Note that to have an account on OTRS, you must be ready to use "a" real name and not disclose sensible information that may go through the wrong queue. Cheers, Delphine -- ~notafish

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Timwi

14 Nov 14 Nov

12:25 a.m.

If you are ready to help and want an account there, ask the people in charge of the queue you can help with (ie. probably info-en in your case).

I can't believe that Wikimedia is still having problems grasping the wiki concept. Why should I even need an account? Why do I need to ask any people for any kind of access, including even just READING the questions? You also haven't answered my question why helpdesk-l still exists if we have a proper ticket system set up already. Until you get these basic things sorted, you're not going to get particularly many volunteers to help you. Timwi

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Matt Brown

12:34 a.m.

On 11/13/05, Timwi <timwi(a)gmx.net> wrote:

I can't believe that Wikimedia is still having problems grasping the wiki concept. Why should I even need an account? Why do I need to ask any people for any kind of access, including even just READING the questions?

Because people writing to the Wikimedia Foundation don't expect their messages being read by the whole world, for one thing. As to write access being restricted, imagine the fun some of our favorite trolls would have, answering Wikipedia's email. -Matt

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Alphax (Wikipedia email)

2:29 a.m.

Matt Brown wrote:

On 11/13/05, Timwi <timwi(a)gmx.net> wrote:

I can't believe that Wikimedia is still having problems grasping the wiki concept. Why should I even need an account? Why do I need to ask any people for any kind of access, including even just READING the questions?

Because people writing to the Wikimedia Foundation don't expect their messages being read by the whole world, for one thing. As to write access being restricted, imagine the fun some of our favorite trolls would have, answering Wikipedia's email.

On helpdesk-l they already can... of course, the more people that join and send *good* information, the less harm that will be caused by the *bad*... -- Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia "We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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Angela

12:38 a.m.

On 11/14/05, Timwi <timwi(a)gmx.net> wrote:

Why do I need to ask any people for any kind of access, including even just READING the questions?

Because people misunderstand the nature of the queue and send private information there. If there want to send non-private information, they should use helpdesk-l instead. It also allows Jimmy to forward the hundreds of questions he receives personally somewhere for someone else to answer without having to worry about making the sender's private details public. Angela

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Timwi

1:30 a.m.

Angela wrote:

On 11/14/05, Timwi <timwi(a)gmx.net> wrote:

Why do I need to ask any people for any kind of access, including even just READING the questions?

Because people misunderstand the nature of the queue and send private information there. If there want to send non-private information, they should use helpdesk-l instead. It also allows Jimmy to forward the hundreds of questions he receives personally somewhere for someone else to answer without having to worry about making the sender's private details public.

I should clarify at this point that I have no interest in convincing you of anything. I was trying to give some helpful hints as to how to win the volunteers you so desperately seem to need, but obviously nobody is listening, so I might as well stop bothering and not volunteer. Timwi

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Angela

1:48 a.m.

On 11/14/05, Timwi <timwi(a)gmx.net> wrote:

I should clarify at this point that I have no interest in convincing you of anything. I was trying to give some helpful hints as to how to win the volunteers you so desperately seem to need, but obviously nobody is listening, so I might as well stop bothering and not volunteer.

I think you've misunderstood the situation. It isn't the private OTRS queue which needs more volunteers right now, but the publicly available helpdesk-l, to which anyone can subscribe and help out at http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/helpdesk-l Angela.

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Timwi

21 Nov 21 Nov

1:27 a.m.

Angela wrote:

On 11/14/05, Timwi <timwi(a)gmx.net> wrote:

I should clarify at this point that I have no interest in convincing you of anything. I was trying to give some helpful hints as to how to win the volunteers you so desperately seem to need, but obviously nobody is listening, so I might as well stop bothering and not volunteer.

I think you've misunderstood the situation. It isn't the private OTRS queue which needs more volunteers right now, but the publicly available helpdesk-l, to which anyone can subscribe and help out at http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/helpdesk-l

No, you misunderstood. There is a need for users to be able to ask questions. You attempted to cater for this need by creating helpdesk-l. It has become obvious that people cannot do the task properly in a mailing list, and as a result, helpdesk-l doesn't fulfill its purpose. So I suggested a ticket system. Then you said "we already have one" and linked to it. So I looked at it and noticed it is completely shut off and private and secret. As such, it doesn't fulfill the task either. I would have thought making a part of the system public and open would only be a quick and simple configuration setting, but if it isn't, well then OTRS clearly isn't the solution either. Either way, you'll have to come up with something better than helpdesk-l. Timwi

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Sam Korn

7:51 p.m.

On 11/21/05, Timwi <timwi(a)gmx.net> wrote:

No, you misunderstood. There is a need for users to be able to ask questions. You attempted to cater for this need by creating helpdesk-l. It has become obvious that people cannot do the task properly in a mailing list, and as a result, helpdesk-l doesn't fulfill its purpose. So I suggested a ticket system. Then you said "we already have one" and linked to it. So I looked at it and noticed it is completely shut off and private and secret. As such, it doesn't fulfill the task either. I would have thought making a part of the system public and open would only be a quick and simple configuration setting, but if it isn't, well then OTRS clearly isn't the solution either. Either way, you'll have to come up with something better than helpdesk-l.

Hence my suggestion of a PHPbb bulletin board. Would this be possible to implement? It's only a simple SQL database and a few PHP files. Just as a test? It would save *a lot* on inbox space. -- Sam

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Alphax (Wikipedia email)

14 Nov 14 Nov

2:27 a.m.

Delphine Ménard wrote:

On 11/13/05, Timwi <timwi(a)gmx.net> wrote:

More here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/PR_department

Thanks, found the link to the OTRS -- but it asked me for a username/password, didn't accept my normal Wikipedia log-in, and didn't provide a mean to create a new account. How are users supposed to ask a question on this?

A question on what? On the OTRS self, or about Wikipedia/media? The meta page lists all the contacts. All of the "departments" listed there are <insert-prefix-listed-on-meta-page-here>(a)wikimedia.org or wikipedia.org addresses, advertised on various wikis and places and end up on the OTRS. If you are ready to help and want an account there, ask the people in charge of the queue you can help with (ie. probably info-en in your case). Enquiries ending up in the OTRS vary from "we'd like to give you a million servers" to "Have you noticed your site is editable?". In between, the usual copyvios and libel claims...

We get the same stuff on helpdesk-l too, but due to the lack of help, the list admins were forced to turn off moderation. Now that we have a few more list admins (myself included), I believe we've turned it back on again...

Note that to have an account on OTRS, you must be ready to use "a" real name and not disclose sensible information that may go through the wrong queue.

You *don't* need a Real Name on helpdesk-l :) -- Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia "We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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Ilya N.

13 Nov 13 Nov

5:56 a.m.

Agreed. I subscribed to the list, but then unsubscribed in a week because of the constant barrage of mail flooding into my wikipedia mailing list label -- over 300 messages in 2 days! On 11/12/05, Timwi <timwi(a)gmx.net> wrote:

[about helpdesk-l]

The moderation queue is being cleaned out, so there are a *lot* of new messages to answer. You can subscribe to the list at: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/helpdesk-l

A mailing list is chronically unsuitable for the task that helpdesk-l is trying to solve. In order to answer someone's question everyone has to remember to send the reply back to the user and not just to the list. Potential follow-ups from that user then go to the answerer and not to the mailing list. There is no real way to get a glimpse of what queries are as yet unanswered. Since anyone can subscribe to the list and reply to questions, and replies cannot be edited by other users, the requestor has no way of knowing how authoritative or accurate the answer is. A lesser problem is the potential of the user receiving several (possibly contradicting) replies from different users. An issue-tracking system would be vastly more appropriate. Perhaps best would be a system like LiveJournal Support, or perhaps exactly that system. The system knows what requests are answered and unanswered (open and closed), the question and the answer(s) can be seen on one page, the user's follow-up reply is on the same page, etc.etc. Just a thought. If people in general are happy with the mailing list, then of course I won't intervene and let you use it. But I won't help answer questions there. Timwi _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

-- ~Ilya N. http://w3stuff.com/ilya/ (My website; DarkLordFoxx Media) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ilyanep (on Wikipedia)

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participants (13)

Alphax (Wikipedia email)
Angela
Brion Vibber
Cormac Lawler
Delphine Ménard
Ilya N.
Jimmy Wales
Jtkiefer
Matt Brown
Phil Boswell
Sam Korn
Timwi
Wikiacc