Some good questions here by Steve Bennett, which deserve good answers. I'll
> a) Most people will abandon "nn, delete"
reasoning and seriously consider
>arguments for inclusion if someone throws a strong
argument into the debate.
What if the keep argument is made at the end of the
It's obviously the great weakness of AfD that discussion and voting
happens simultaneously - votes can take place in ignorance of
intelligent arguments subsequently made.
20 straight "nn delete" votes followed by 3 straight well argued
is something that I for one would take into consideration. If the admin
chooses to close as a "keep", I don't know if DRV would be able to muster
required 75% majority to "overturn and delete", if it does the article *was*
maybe something which ought to be deleted after all, the experts' opinions
notwithstanding. A 50% majority to overturn will only produce a fresh
relisting, with the keep argument getting the attention it deserves, some
more discussion, and a more thought out result.
Alright, let's say the admin chooses to delete. Sometimes those who vote on
DRV will be sympathetic to the argument that the last three contributions to
the discussion were not adequately addressed because they came so late.
Perhaps especially if the last "voters" made some considerable improvements
to the article shortly before it was deleted.
Well, sometimes not, I do agree that "Keep deleted. Valid AFD debate. ~~~~"
can be a real pain to those who make a good effort to save an article which
arguably should not have been deleted. It is a problem, not one that pops up
very very often, but still annoying at times.
> b) We have a number of inclusionists on AFD who
more or less reject the
> of notability anyway and will vote to keep
articles on all roads, streets,
> schools and churches.
I think it would be in the project's interest if we
could define a set
of exceptions to "notability" on the basis that comprehensiveness in
certain areas is more valuable. Most people would probably agree that
every university in the world should have an article. However by
definition, once you include "every" anything, you include "non
In other words, I don't think every subject should
have to be notable,
if it has another reason for being included.
In some cases we do have a consensus. We automatically include all articles on
any thorp, hamlet or village, even if there only live 5 people there. A few
AFD debates have pretty much determined that all railway stations and subway
stations are not subject to notability requirements. When the Hippopotamus
Defence article was kept, it pretty much determined that all chess openings
are worthy of articles, no matter how obscure they are (although I and some
others have boldly gone ahead with some merging the subvariations of various
On many other things, we will probably never form a consensus but all is not
lost since we can learn by trial and experience. We don't have a consensus to
keep all verifiable schools, but most have acknowledged the futility of
trying to delete them.
> c) Most people are loathe to delete well-written
articles, even if the
> notability is dubious.
That's a major problem. Perhaps if we change the
"deleting it", with its connotations of purging it from the surface of
the earth, to "moving it out of Wikipedia"?
Not really a major problem. Well written articles on borderline notable
subjects don't really do much harm to the project. At best such articles
illustrate the depth and vastness of information which lies in Wikipedia, and
as long as they are verifiable, neutral and tertiary, they don't really do
"Moving out of Wikipedia" is a term I would reserve for transwikis.