Abe Sokolov (abesokolov(a)hotmail.com) [041225 18:36]: If they aren't, they'll have friends who are. It's the same reason Digital Rights Management and copy-protection on CDs doesn't work - if one person breaks it, it's broken for all. - d.

Please dont mix up trolls and vandals with hackers and crackers. Sure some members of those four gropus are members of others, but just cause someone breaks the copyright on a CD does not mean they are at all anti-social, just anti-corporate. paz y amor, [[User:The bellman]] Ray Saintonge <saintonge(a)telus.net> wrote: -- hit me: robin.shannon.id.au jab me: saudade(a)jabber.zim.net.au This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Recombo Plus License. To view a copy of this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sampling+/1.0/

Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote: From my position on the relative sidelines (I've never had direct dealings with ArbCom nor do I follow its activities much beyond what gets discussed on this list), the problem(s) are not with the technology or the policies, but are solely with ArbCom, and I see five possibilities as to what they are: 1) ArbCom is toothless to deal rapidly with clear abuses. I don't think this is the case. If it is, it needs to be fixed quickly. 2) ArbCom thinks it's toothless to deal rapidly with clear abuses. If this is the case, I think *YOU* (Jimbo) can and should fix it by making it clear to them they're not. 3) ArbCom is afraid of backlash for dealing rapidly with clear abuses. I feel like this may be the most likely problem. I also think it could be worked through simply by biting the bullet and coming down hard and fast on a few exceptional problem cases, making Wikipedians get used to the fact that "due process" doesn't mean "any process that makes it harder to ban someone". (I think this is an artifact of a time when Wikipedia was much smaller you held sole power to ban and did everything you could to avoid it. A benevolent dictator presiding over a medium-sized project is markedly different from a pseudo-democratic body presiding over one of the largest "open source" projects in the world with one of the lowest barriers to entry. I don't think enough people have grasped that.) 4) ArbCom is woefully understaffed. I think staffing levels are a factor regardless of the truth of any of these other points. From the sound of things, the recent elections have helped. Depending on how the next few weeks and months go, I think serious consideration should be given to expanding ArbCom further. 5) ArbCom is "lazy". For one reason or another, some arbitrators apparently aren't active. I'd rather not see anyone forcibly removed, but I'd certainly urge any inactive arbitrators to resign so that others with more time may take their place. In relation to the last two possibilities, I've had a thought. Some people are clearly afraid of making a long-term commitment to ArbCom, but might not be adverse to short-term stints. I'm thinking perhaps a monthly list of volunteers that ArbCom could select from to form temporary committees to review a particular case and recommend action with ArbCom making the final call. How well this would work in practice I can't say.

We have 11 arbitrators, the new ones are quite active. We are ok for a bit. Regarding reviewing a case, if anyone wants to do it on the talk page of the proposed decision, please go ahead. If we like it we will just put it in the proposed decision and vote on it. No permission needed. Fred

Nicholas Knight wrote: I think we're good at this point. The ArbCom is empowered to deal rapidly with clear abuses, and I think they know it. I think this is basically accurate. I do recommend, though, that the "coming down hard and fast" be really limited to a few exceptional problem cases, as opposed to being random. Yes. I think we should keep an eye on it and increase the size as needed. I liked your idea of some form of temporary volunteer help for the ArbCom as well, although I hate to see more and more people bogged down with this stuff. Perhaps it is better to just streamline the process to a degree. --Jimbo -- "La nèfle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on fr.wikipedia.org