Re: [WikiEN-l] Cyde should not have violated Deletion policy (

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John Tex

4 May 2006 4 May '06

8:51 a.m.

On 5/3/06, wikien-l-request(a)wikipedia.org

...

From: Ben McIlwain <cydeweys(a)gmail.com> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Cyde should not have violated Deletion policy (Johntex) To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l(a)Wikipedia.org> Message-ID: <4459925E.90903(a)gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I didn't "close" the debate so much as I "canceled" it. My "vote", as you mention, was to cancel it ... and then a minute after that I realized I could go through with what I said should be done.

Unfortunately, this misses the point. Whether you called it a "closure" or "cancellation" or a "stoppage" or whatever. You halted the process that a lot of people were contributing to. They had a right to be heard. This wastes a lot of time and looks like bad behavior for an admin to kill an AfD early, especially one he has been involved in. Johntex

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Alphax (Wikipedia email)

4 May 4 May

11:57 a.m.

New subject: Cyde should not have violated Deletion policy (

John Tex wrote:

...

On 5/3/06, wikien-l-request(a)wikipedia.org

Unfortunately, this misses the point. Whether you called it a "closure" or "cancellation" or a "stoppage" or whatever. You halted the process that a lot of people were contributing to.

The process was /wrong/.

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They had a right to be heard.

Wikipedia is NOT a democracy; the First Ammendment of the Constitution of the United States only guarantees "free speech" against intervention by Congress. Wikipedia is a private website where you have exactly TWO rights: * The right to leave * The right to fork

...

This wastes a lot of time and looks like bad behavior for an admin to kill an AfD early, especially one he has been involved in.

It looks a hell of a lot like using common sense. -- Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia "We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

Fred Bauder

2:16 p.m.

New subject: Cyde should not have violated Deletion policy (

On May 4, 2006, at 3:57 AM, Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:

...

Those are your enforceable legal rights; however, you also have the right to participate on an equal basis in the project; the right to be treated with respect; and the right to a fair hearing should your rights not be respected or should you be accused of violating the rights of others. Just because you cannot go into a court and enforce Wikipedia policies does not mean that they do not exist and are not upheld. Fred

geni

3:14 p.m.

New subject: Cyde should not have violated Deletion policy (

On 5/4/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

It looks a hell of a lot like using common sense.

[[Monty Hall problem]]. "Common sense" is not a valid justifcation for descission makeing. -- geni

Katefan0

3:30 p.m.

New subject: Cyde should not have violated Deletion policy (

I respect John a great deal, but I think the end result was right in this instance and support Cyde's actions. k On 5/4/06, geni <geniice(a)gmail.com> wrote:

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On 5/4/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax(a)gmail.com> wrote:

It looks a hell of a lot like using common sense.

[[Monty Hall problem]]. "Common sense" is not a valid justifcation for descission makeing. -- geni _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Phil Boswell

3:35 p.m.

New subject: Cyde should not have violated Deletion policy (

geni wrote:

...

On 5/4/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax(a)gmail.com> wrote:

It looks a hell of a lot like using common sense.

[[Monty Hall problem]]. "Common sense" is not a valid justification for decision making.

The reason the [[Monty Hall problem]] is a "problem" is because it appears to turn common sense on its head: the "exception that proves the rule". Just because there exist carefully designed situations in which common sense will lead you up a carefully prepared garden path does not invalidate the application of common sense in each and every situation. The reason it is called "common sense" is after all because it commonly makes sense. HTH HAND -- Phil -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-Cyde-should-not-have-violated-Deletion-policy-%… Sent from the English Wikipedia forum at Nabble.com.

geni

3:44 p.m.

New subject: Cyde should not have violated Deletion policy (

On 5/4/06, Phil Boswell <phil.boswell(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

geni wrote:

On 5/4/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax(a)gmail.com> wrote:

It looks a hell of a lot like using common sense.

[[Monty Hall problem]]. "Common sense" is not a valid justification for decision making.

The reason the [[Monty Hall problem]] is a "problem" is because it appears to turn common sense on its head: the "exception that proves the rule".

That phrase makes no sense in commonly used modern english english.

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Just because there exist carefully designed situations in which common sense will lead you up a carefully prepared garden path does not invalidate the application of common sense in each and every situation.

Ok then how about: [[Proof that 0.999... equals 1]] or most of [[Quantum mechanics]] Since there is no useful way of telling when "common sense" is going to break down it's use over logical deduction from evidence is not jusifiable.

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The reason it is called "common sense" is after all because it commonly makes sense.

Our article on the subject disagres -- geni

Drini drini

8:21 p.m.

New subject: Cyde should not have violated Deletion policy (

On 5/4/06, geni <geniice(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 5/4/06, Phil Boswell <phil.boswell(a)gmail.com> wrote:

geni wrote: > > On 5/4/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> It looks a hell of a lot like using common sense. > [[Monty Hall problem]]. "Common sense" is not a valid justification

for

decision making.

The reason the [[Monty Hall problem]] is a "problem" is because it

appears

to turn common sense on its head: the "exception that proves the rule".

That phrase makes no sense in commonly used modern english english.

Just because there exist carefully designed situations in which common

sense

will lead you up a carefully prepared garden path does not invalidate

the

application of common sense in each and every situation.

Ok then how about: [[Proof that 0.999... equals 1]] or most of [[Quantum mechanics]]

and for what is worth, 0.9999.... = 1 is common sense to me (but I won't comment on quantum mechanics)

Ben McIlwain

7:37 p.m.

New subject: Cyde should not have violated Deletion policy (

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 geni wrote:

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On 5/4/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax(a)gmail.com> wrote:

It looks a hell of a lot like using common sense.

[[Monty Hall problem]]. "Common sense" is not a valid justifcation for descission makeing.

For what it's worth I figured out the Monty Hall problem on my own with a simple experiment when I was younger, so don't say it tricks everyone, because it doesn't. - -- Ben McIlwain ("Cyde Weys") ~ Sub veste quisque nudus est ~

...PGP SIGNATURE...

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Alphax (Wikipedia email)

5 May 5 May

6:14 a.m.

New subject: Cyde should not have violated Deletion policy (

Ben McIlwain wrote:

...

geni wrote:

On 5/4/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax(a)gmail.com> wrote:

It looks a hell of a lot like using common sense.

[[Monty Hall problem]]. "Common sense" is not a valid justifcation for descission makeing.

For what it's worth I figured out the Monty Hall problem on my own with a simple experiment when I was younger, so don't say it tricks everyone, because it doesn't.

More to the point, the outcome of the Monty Hall problem is "common sense" once you understand it. Denying that staying will give you a better chance of winning when there are 9999998 doors with goats behind them open, when you've had it explained to you, is /not/ common sense. On Wikipedia there's a term for this sort of ignoring common sense - being a dick. -- Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia "We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

Guy Chapman aka JzG

4 May 4 May

1:26 p.m.

New subject: Cyde should not have violated Deletion policy (

On Wed, 3 May 2006 23:51:01 -0700, you wrote:

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I disagree. Cyde stopped a catfight. Guy (JzG) -- http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG

Fred Bauder

2:25 p.m.

New subject: Cyde should not have violated Deletion policy (

On May 4, 2006, at 5:26 AM, Guy Chapman aka JzG wrote:

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On Wed, 3 May 2006 23:51:01 -0700, you wrote:

I disagree. Cyde stopped a catfight.

But he took a job as a cat herder. Yes, the AfD is extremely messy and, however decided, will involve bad feeling, but when we attempt to write encyclopedia articles about contemporary controversial subjects that is always the case. The alternative would be to not accept articles until the matter is settled. But our coverage of controversial current events is one of our strengths. It is like a great Limburger cheese. Nothing that stinky, or interesting, on Britannica. Fred

...

Guy (JzG) -- http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

Tony Sidaway

3:14 p.m.

New subject: Cyde should not have violated Deletion policy (

I think Cyde did the right thing. As I understand it, not one but three separate attempts at vote-stacking were under way. Better to halt the fiasco quickly and to block the miscreants than to let them stack votes and then try to wikilawyer their desired result in deletion review.

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Alphax (Wikipedia email)
Ben McIlwain
Drini drini
Fred Bauder
geni
Guy Chapman aka JzG
John Tex
Katefan0
Phil Boswell
Tony Sidaway