BASC is intended to be a venue to appeal bans specifically and not blocks, but it still sometimes responds to block appeals because an indef-block can be considered a "de facto" ban, albeit one that did not require prior community consensus (or an ArbCom decision).
Since this is not an actual community ban, it should IMO be appropriate to process any unblock request normally on-wiki as an administrator. Perhaps community comment can be sought but it does not seem to be like that would be mandatory. This is regardless of BASC's response (which, if it must be said, seems to have opined as to the validity of the block without commenting on an actual block appeal).
~Benoit / Salvidrim [Sent from my Nexus 5]
On Aug 7, 2015 9:03 AM, Kevin Gorman kgorman@gmail.com wrote: I will say on the face of it, I'm pretty disappointed at how this looks. Chealer's block record was not very long - yes, counting JzG's he received three recent blocks, but there are plenty of people who do little productive who have worse records. And frankly, two of those blocks were for trivial reasons - 3rr, and for editing an archive? I don't think I've ever seen anyone blocked for a week for editing an archive. More so: I'm disappointed that although Chealer requested diffs of what exact part of his behavior was disruptive, he only received one link from anyone. Surely we can do better than this? JzG's initial block offer explicitly indicated a willingness to lift the ban if Chealer altered his behavior... but then JzG never posted on his talk page again. Moreover, JzG's initial block statement was insufficient - you don't get to indef a long time community member and just say the reasons are "obvious".
Once I have more time to examine this block later today, I'm going to be tempted to restore Chealer's talkpage access, because JzG's initial block offer explicitly included an offer to unblock him if he changed his behavior, and that obviously can't be done if he can't even talk. I'll also ping JzG to the page because I'd hope the initial blocking administrator would be the person to work this out, but if he doesn't show up and Chealer's 'record of disruption' seems like something where he can agree to a set of conditions that will mitigate any future disruption, I'll be awfully tempted to act in JzG's stead in implementing his offer.... That's certainly not an offer that can be implemented with TPA and JzG MIA.
This could be a perfectly good block. But JzG's initial block notice and subsequent discussion on the page don't make it obvious that it's a good block. I'll be reviewing the entire situation later including all of Chealer's recent edits (I've only looked at the talk page and block log atm,) and may find it to be an entirely good block, but if not I intend to restore Chealer's talk page access, ping JzG to the page so that we can discuss JzG's initial offer, and if JzG doesn't show up (to me, it's weird to use "you know what you did" block message on anyone but vandals,) given that JzG initially showed a willingness to unblock CHealer, if I work out a set of conditions that I'm confident will mitigate any future problems, I'll be awfully tempted to unblock Chealer myself. (And again, I may find an indefinite block totally appropriate here - it's just not at all obvious from the block message or from future discusssion on the page.)
Even though this has already gone to BASC, I'm pretty sure these actions would be within my authority as an administrator - someone correct me if I'm wrong please.
Best, Kevin Gorman
On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 5:43 AM, Filipus Klutiero chealer@gmail.com wrote:
I am forwarding the last mail promised in https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2015-August/111154.html This is the last mail in the thread on JzG's case (regarding WP:EXPLAINBLOCK violations). It quotes the 2 other mails in that thread (as well as the original report).
The only mail from the BASC in this thread is entirely quoted, except for pre-written paragraphs.
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Fwd: Re: [arbcom-appeals-en] Appeal by Chealer Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2015 13:38:20 -0400 From: Filipus Klutiero chealer@gmail.com To: arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Hi, During the first week of June, I was told by Chris McKenny that the Ban Appeals Subcommittee considered User:JzG's 2015-04-13 block as policy-compliant. As can be seen in the forwarded mail, I asked Chris to explain shortly after, hoping to understand the subcommittee's stance on this issue, but have not received a reply so far.
I have not retired yet, and I intend to treat this issue in my retirement letter, which is why I hereby ask other members to explain your position.
By the way, I noticed that a reform is already being discussed (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Ban_appeals_ref... ).
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: [arbcom-appeals-en] Appeal by Chealer Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2015 12:37:58 -0400 From: Filipus Klutiero chealer@gmail.com To: Chris McKenna thryduulf.wiki@gmail.com CC: English Arbitration Committee mailing list (appeals) arbcom-appeals-en@lists.wikimedia.org
Hi Chris,
On 2015-06-04 04:39, Chris McKenna wrote:
Hello Chealer
The Arbitration Committee has carefully considered your application and declines to unblock at this time.
Thank you for the prompt response.
After examining your conduct we have determined that the current block and block log message are correct and compliant with policy.
Please provide the committee's deliberations on this issue. If this is not possible, did the committee have a unanimous stance?
[...]
*--- Chris McKenna (Thryduulf)* thryduulf.wiki@gmail.com mailto:thryduulf.wiki@gmail.com
Unless otherwise noted, opinions expressed in this email are solely my own and do not necessarily represent the views of the Arbitration Committee as a whole.
On 17 May 2015 at 17:50, Chealer <chealer@gmail.com mailto:chealer@gmail.com> wrote:
Update: My first 2 attempts to submit this email apparently failed, asdiscussed on #wikipedia-en and #wikimedia-stewards. Please excuse and ignore in case the first attempts actually worked. -------------------------------------------- I have never used any other username on Wikipedia.
The latest block on my account, imposed by User:JzG, violates theblocking policy (per WP:EXPLAINBLOCK).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Chealer#Blocked (excluding theunrelated "Related AN notice" subsection) is the relevant on-wiki discussion. The UTRS appeal is #13664.
The administrator who reviewed my UTRS appeal rejected implying thatmy actions were disruptive and mentioning he "f[ou]nd this block justified". Since I had no chance to reply, I would like to make it clear that my appeals do *not* mean I consider the block "unjustified". While I would not say that "[my] actions were [...] disruptive", I will not go as far as to claim that not one of the 10 000+ actions I performed on the English Wikipedia over 10+ years has been disruptive. In fact, I know that some of these were erroneous, and I have no doubt that I have neither fixed myself nor recognized in any way some of my errors, even if we only count those I already noticed. JzG's block could be "justified" in the sense that a justification for it could have been provided. All I am asking for with this appeal is to revoke JzG's block. I am *not* asking to be "unblocked" in the sense that my account should be free to edit again. If any administrator thinks my contributions call for a new block, then that administrator is free to implement it in compliance with policy. To be perfectly clear, the outcome of this appeal will be correct as long as the current block is repealed, whether my account ends up affected by a policy-compliant block or not.
By the way, I really appreciate the BASC Status ("Currently, you canexpect your appeal to be decided in ~ 6 weeks."). It would be nice to precise "Currently" though - or even better, allow making appeals public. Oh, and "Email me a copy of my message." is really nice meanwhile.
-- This email was sent by user "Chealer" on the English Wikipedia to user"Ban Appeals Subcommittee". It has been automatically delivered and the Wikimedia Foundation cannot be held responsible for its contents.
The sender has not been given the recipient's email address, nor anyinformation about his/her email account; and the recipient has no obligation to reply to this email or take any other action that might disclose his/her identity. If you respond, the sender will know your email address. For further information on privacy, security, and replying, as well as abuse and removal from emailing, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Email.
_______________________________________________ ArbCom-appeals-en mailing list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BASC https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/arbcom-appeals-en-- Filipus Klutiero http://www.philippecloutier.com
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
_______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
So in my case, where should I appeal? I was blocked indef. On Aug 8, 2015 10:43 AM, "Ben Salvidrim" benoit_landry@hotmail.com wrote:
BASC is intended to be a venue to appeal bans specifically and not blocks, but it still sometimes responds to block appeals because an indef-block can be considered a "de facto" ban, albeit one that did not require prior community consensus (or an ArbCom decision).
Since this is not an actual community ban, it should IMO be appropriate to process any unblock request normally on-wiki as an administrator. Perhaps community comment can be sought but it does not seem to be like that would be mandatory. This is regardless of BASC's response (which, if it must be said, seems to have opined as to the validity of the block without commenting on an actual block appeal).
~Benoit / Salvidrim [Sent from my Nexus 5]
On Aug 7, 2015 9:03 AM, Kevin Gorman kgorman@gmail.com wrote: I will say on the face of it, I'm pretty disappointed at how this looks. Chealer's block record was not very long - yes, counting JzG's he received three recent blocks, but there are plenty of people who do little productive who have worse records. And frankly, two of those blocks were for trivial reasons - 3rr, and for editing an archive? I don't think I've ever seen anyone blocked for a week for editing an archive. More so: I'm disappointed that although Chealer requested diffs of what exact part of his behavior was disruptive, he only received one link from anyone. Surely we can do better than this? JzG's initial block offer explicitly indicated a willingness to lift the ban if Chealer altered his behavior... but then JzG never posted on his talk page again. Moreover, JzG's initial block statement was insufficient - you don't get to indef a long time community member and just say the reasons are "obvious".
Once I have more time to examine this block later today, I'm going to be tempted to restore Chealer's talkpage access, because JzG's initial block offer explicitly included an offer to unblock him if he changed his behavior, and that obviously can't be done if he can't even talk. I'll also ping JzG to the page because I'd hope the initial blocking administrator would be the person to work this out, but if he doesn't show up and Chealer's 'record of disruption' seems like something where he can agree to a set of conditions that will mitigate any future disruption, I'll be awfully tempted to act in JzG's stead in implementing his offer.... That's certainly not an offer that can be implemented with TPA and JzG MIA.
This could be a perfectly good block. But JzG's initial block notice and subsequent discussion on the page don't make it obvious that it's a good block. I'll be reviewing the entire situation later including all of Chealer's recent edits (I've only looked at the talk page and block log atm,) and may find it to be an entirely good block, but if not I intend to restore Chealer's talk page access, ping JzG to the page so that we can discuss JzG's initial offer, and if JzG doesn't show up (to me, it's weird to use "you know what you did" block message on anyone but vandals,) given that JzG initially showed a willingness to unblock CHealer, if I work out a set of conditions that I'm confident will mitigate any future problems, I'll be awfully tempted to unblock Chealer myself. (And again, I may find an indefinite block totally appropriate here - it's just not at all obvious from the block message or from future discusssion on the page.)
Even though this has already gone to BASC, I'm pretty sure these actions would be within my authority as an administrator - someone correct me if I'm wrong please.
Best, Kevin Gorman
On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 5:43 AM, Filipus Klutiero chealer@gmail.com wrote:
I am forwarding the last mail promised in https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2015-August/111154.html This is the last mail in the thread on JzG's case (regarding
WP:EXPLAINBLOCK
violations). It quotes the 2 other mails in that thread (as well as the original report).
The only mail from the BASC in this thread is entirely quoted, except for pre-written paragraphs.
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Fwd: Re: [arbcom-appeals-en] Appeal by Chealer Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2015 13:38:20 -0400 From: Filipus Klutiero chealer@gmail.com To: arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Hi, During the first week of June, I was told by Chris McKenny that the Ban Appeals Subcommittee considered User:JzG's 2015-04-13 block as policy-compliant. As can be seen in the forwarded mail, I asked Chris to explain shortly after, hoping to understand the subcommittee's stance on this issue, but have not received a reply so far.
I have not retired yet, and I intend to treat this issue in my retirement letter, which is why I hereby ask other members to explain your position.
By the way, I noticed that a reform is already being discussed (see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Ban_appeals_ref...
).
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: [arbcom-appeals-en] Appeal by Chealer Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2015 12:37:58 -0400 From: Filipus Klutiero chealer@gmail.com To: Chris McKenna thryduulf.wiki@gmail.com CC: English Arbitration Committee mailing list (appeals) arbcom-appeals-en@lists.wikimedia.org
Hi Chris,
On 2015-06-04 04:39, Chris McKenna wrote:
Hello Chealer
The Arbitration Committee has carefully considered your application and declines to unblock at this time.
Thank you for the prompt response.
After examining your conduct we have determined that the current block
and
block log message are correct and compliant with policy.
Please provide the committee's deliberations on this issue. If this is
not
possible, did the committee have a unanimous stance?
[...]
*--- Chris McKenna (Thryduulf)* thryduulf.wiki@gmail.com mailto:thryduulf.wiki@gmail.com
Unless otherwise noted, opinions expressed in this email are solely my
own
and do not necessarily represent the views of the Arbitration Committee
as a
whole.
On 17 May 2015 at 17:50, Chealer <chealer@gmail.com mailto:chealer@gmail.com> wrote:
Update: My first 2 attempts to submit this email apparently failed,as
discussed on #wikipedia-en and #wikimedia-stewards. Please excuse and
ignore
in case the first attempts actually worked.
I have never used any other username on Wikipedia. The latest block on my account, imposed by User:JzG, violates theblocking policy (per WP:EXPLAINBLOCK).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Chealer#Blocked (excludingthe
unrelated "Related AN notice" subsection) is the relevant on-wiki discussion. The UTRS appeal is #13664.
The administrator who reviewed my UTRS appeal rejected implying thatmy actions were disruptive and mentioning he "f[ou]nd this block
justified".
Since I had no chance to reply, I would like to make it clear that my appeals do *not* mean I consider the block "unjustified". While I would
not
say that "[my] actions were [...] disruptive", I will not go as far as
to
claim that not one of the 10 000+ actions I performed on the English Wikipedia over 10+ years has been disruptive. In fact, I know that some
of
these were erroneous, and I have no doubt that I have neither fixed
myself
nor recognized in any way some of my errors, even if we only count
those I
already noticed. JzG's block could be "justified" in the sense that a justification for it could have been provided. All I am asking for with
this
appeal is to revoke JzG's block. I am *not* asking to be "unblocked" in
the
sense that my account should be free to edit again. If any administrator thinks my contributions call for a new block, then that administrator is free to implement it in compliance with policy. To be perfectly clear, the outcome of this appeal will be correct as long as the current block is repealed, whether my account ends up
affected
by a policy-compliant block or not.
By the way, I really appreciate the BASC Status ("Currently, you canexpect your appeal to be decided in ~ 6 weeks."). It would be nice to precise "Currently" though - or even better, allow making appeals
public.
Oh, and "Email me a copy of my message." is really nice meanwhile.
-- This email was sent by user "Chealer" on the English Wikipedia touser
"Ban Appeals Subcommittee". It has been automatically delivered and the Wikimedia Foundation cannot be held responsible for its contents.
The sender has not been given the recipient's email address, nor anyinformation about his/her email account; and the recipient has no
obligation
to reply to this email or take any other action that might disclose
his/her
identity. If you respond, the sender will know your email address. For further information on privacy, security, and replying, as well as
abuse and
removal from emailing, see <
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Email%3E.
_______________________________________________ ArbCom-appeals-en mailing list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BASC https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/arbcom-appeals-en-- Filipus Klutiero http://www.philippecloutier.com
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Salut Benoit,
On 2015-08-07 09:14, Ben Salvidrim wrote:
BASC is intended to be a venue to appeal bans specifically and not blocks, but it still sometimes responds to block appeals because an indef-block can be considered a "de facto" ban, albeit one that did not require prior community consensus (or an ArbCom decision).
Despite its name and its communications, the BASC is also intended to review blocks, as confirmed by the lead of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Ban_Appeals_Su...
Since this is not an actual community ban, it should IMO be appropriate to process any unblock request normally on-wiki as an administrator. Perhaps community comment can be sought but it does not seem to be like that would be mandatory. This is regardless of BASC's response (which, if it must be said, seems to have opined as to the validity of the block without commenting on an actual block appeal).
Indeed, the one mail I received from the BASC which I have not forwarded accepted the appeal:
Thank you for writing to us. The Ban Appeals Subcommittee will now consider your appeal and report its decision to you in due course.
The appeal result is confusing, but the BASC clearly indicated that it found the block complied with policy.
~Benoit / Salvidrim [Sent from my Nexus 5]
On Aug 7, 2015 9:03 AM, Kevin Gorman kgorman@gmail.com wrote: I will say on the face of it, I'm pretty disappointed at how this looks. Chealer's block record was not very long - yes, counting JzG's he received three recent blocks, but there are plenty of people who do little productive who have worse records. And frankly, two of those blocks were for trivial reasons - 3rr, and for editing an archive? I don't think I've ever seen anyone blocked for a week for editing an archive. More so: I'm disappointed that although Chealer requested diffs of what exact part of his behavior was disruptive, he only received one link from anyone. Surely we can do better than this? JzG's initial block offer explicitly indicated a willingness to lift the ban if Chealer altered his behavior... but then JzG never posted on his talk page again. Moreover, JzG's initial block statement was insufficient - you don't get to indef a long time community member and just say the reasons are "obvious".
Once I have more time to examine this block later today, I'm going to be tempted to restore Chealer's talkpage access, because JzG's initial block offer explicitly included an offer to unblock him if he changed his behavior, and that obviously can't be done if he can't even talk. I'll also ping JzG to the page because I'd hope the initial blocking administrator would be the person to work this out, but if he doesn't show up and Chealer's 'record of disruption' seems like something where he can agree to a set of conditions that will mitigate any future disruption, I'll be awfully tempted to act in JzG's stead in implementing his offer.... That's certainly not an offer that can be implemented with TPA and JzG MIA.
This could be a perfectly good block. But JzG's initial block notice and subsequent discussion on the page don't make it obvious that it's a good block. I'll be reviewing the entire situation later including all of Chealer's recent edits (I've only looked at the talk page and block log atm,) and may find it to be an entirely good block, but if not I intend to restore Chealer's talk page access, ping JzG to the page so that we can discuss JzG's initial offer, and if JzG doesn't show up (to me, it's weird to use "you know what you did" block message on anyone but vandals,) given that JzG initially showed a willingness to unblock CHealer, if I work out a set of conditions that I'm confident will mitigate any future problems, I'll be awfully tempted to unblock Chealer myself. (And again, I may find an indefinite block totally appropriate here - it's just not at all obvious from the block message or from future discusssion on the page.)
Even though this has already gone to BASC, I'm pretty sure these actions would be within my authority as an administrator - someone correct me if I'm wrong please.
Best, Kevin Gorman
On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 5:43 AM, Filipus Klutiero chealer@gmail.com wrote:
I am forwarding the last mail promised in https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2015-August/111154.html This is the last mail in the thread on JzG's case (regarding WP:EXPLAINBLOCK violations). It quotes the 2 other mails in that thread (as well as the original report).
The only mail from the BASC in this thread is entirely quoted, except for pre-written paragraphs.
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Fwd: Re: [arbcom-appeals-en] Appeal by Chealer Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2015 13:38:20 -0400 From: Filipus Klutiero chealer@gmail.com To: arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Hi, During the first week of June, I was told by Chris McKenny that the Ban Appeals Subcommittee considered User:JzG's 2015-04-13 block as policy-compliant. As can be seen in the forwarded mail, I asked Chris to explain shortly after, hoping to understand the subcommittee's stance on this issue, but have not received a reply so far.
I have not retired yet, and I intend to treat this issue in my retirement letter, which is why I hereby ask other members to explain your position.
By the way, I noticed that a reform is already being discussed (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Ban_appeals_ref... ).
-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: [arbcom-appeals-en] Appeal by Chealer Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2015 12:37:58 -0400 From: Filipus Klutiero chealer@gmail.com To: Chris McKenna thryduulf.wiki@gmail.com CC: English Arbitration Committee mailing list (appeals) arbcom-appeals-en@lists.wikimedia.org
Hi Chris,
On 2015-06-04 04:39, Chris McKenna wrote:
Hello Chealer
The Arbitration Committee has carefully considered your application and declines to unblock at this time.
Thank you for the prompt response.
After examining your conduct we have determined that the current block and block log message are correct and compliant with policy.
Please provide the committee's deliberations on this issue. If this is not possible, did the committee have a unanimous stance?
[...]
*--- Chris McKenna (Thryduulf)* thryduulf.wiki@gmail.com mailto:thryduulf.wiki@gmail.com
Unless otherwise noted, opinions expressed in this email are solely my own and do not necessarily represent the views of the Arbitration Committee as a whole.
On 17 May 2015 at 17:50, Chealer <chealer@gmail.com mailto:chealer@gmail.com> wrote:
Update: My first 2 attempts to submit this email apparently failed, asdiscussed on #wikipedia-en and #wikimedia-stewards. Please excuse and ignore in case the first attempts actually worked. -------------------------------------------- I have never used any other username on Wikipedia.
The latest block on my account, imposed by User:JzG, violates theblocking policy (per WP:EXPLAINBLOCK).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Chealer#Blocked (excluding theunrelated "Related AN notice" subsection) is the relevant on-wiki discussion. The UTRS appeal is #13664.
The administrator who reviewed my UTRS appeal rejected implying thatmy actions were disruptive and mentioning he "f[ou]nd this block justified". Since I had no chance to reply, I would like to make it clear that my appeals do *not* mean I consider the block "unjustified". While I would not say that "[my] actions were [...] disruptive", I will not go as far as to claim that not one of the 10 000+ actions I performed on the English Wikipedia over 10+ years has been disruptive. In fact, I know that some of these were erroneous, and I have no doubt that I have neither fixed myself nor recognized in any way some of my errors, even if we only count those I already noticed. JzG's block could be "justified" in the sense that a justification for it could have been provided. All I am asking for with this appeal is to revoke JzG's block. I am *not* asking to be "unblocked" in the sense that my account should be free to edit again. If any administrator thinks my contributions call for a new block, then that administrator is free to implement it in compliance with policy. To be perfectly clear, the outcome of this appeal will be correct as long as the current block is repealed, whether my account ends up affected by a policy-compliant block or not.
By the way, I really appreciate the BASC Status ("Currently, you canexpect your appeal to be decided in ~ 6 weeks."). It would be nice to precise "Currently" though - or even better, allow making appeals public. Oh, and "Email me a copy of my message." is really nice meanwhile.
-- This email was sent by user "Chealer" on the English Wikipedia to user"Ban Appeals Subcommittee". It has been automatically delivered and the Wikimedia Foundation cannot be held responsible for its contents.
The sender has not been given the recipient's email address, nor anyinformation about his/her email account; and the recipient has no obligation to reply to this email or take any other action that might disclose his/her identity. If you respond, the sender will know your email address. For further information on privacy, security, and replying, as well as abuse and removal from emailing, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Email.
_______________________________________________ ArbCom-appeals-en mailing list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BASC https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/arbcom-appeals-en