cc'd to lists that people read
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 4:03 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
I sincerely hate to sound repetitive and annoying, but since the switch to Vector in en.wikipedia it's impossible to run a full-text search of Wikipedia using the search box if there's an article by the same name.
The "Search" button is gone, because it was supposed to be possible to run a full-text search in the redesigned search box without that button, but apparently this doesn't actually work. It's only possible to run a full-text search by switching back to Monobook or by manually going to Special:Search (there's no link to it anywhere).
So basically, for five days already it's practically impossible to search for information within Wikipedia. Read this again: it's impossible to search Wikipedia. Am i crazy if i think that this is a very severe problem?
This is reported as a bug: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23558
The right thing to do is to restore the go and search buttons immediately and consider reintroducing the new search box after it has been thoroughly tested. Is there any reason not to do this?
-- אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי Amir Elisha Aharoni
"We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace." - T. Moore _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
The link to Special:Search is the magnifying glass icon next to (or in) the search box.
To get "Search" instead of "Go", do what Magnus Manske suggested a few days ago:
"just type your search query, then hit the "cursor up" key to select the last point in the dropdown box, which is the good ol' search function. Hit enter, and there you go."
The downside being that those who don't know this, and are taken to the article we have by the name they typed (but they don't want), will get lost and stuck (disambiguation pages are not always provided and are not always complete). They may try searching again, but may end up being sent time and time again to the page they don't want before finding out how to do a proper search.
I suppose the idea is that most people using that search box want "go" functionality, not "search" functionality, but seeing as Google's default is "search" not "go", I suspect more people are used to getting a list of search results and clicking the top one than might be realised.
Carcharoth
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 2:09 PM, Nathan nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
cc'd to lists that people read
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 4:03 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
I sincerely hate to sound repetitive and annoying, but since the switch to Vector in en.wikipedia it's impossible to run a full-text search of Wikipedia using the search box if there's an article by the same name.
The "Search" button is gone, because it was supposed to be possible to run a full-text search in the redesigned search box without that button, but apparently this doesn't actually work. It's only possible to run a full-text search by switching back to Monobook or by manually going to Special:Search (there's no link to it anywhere).
So basically, for five days already it's practically impossible to search for information within Wikipedia. Read this again: it's impossible to search Wikipedia. Am i crazy if i think that this is a very severe problem?
This is reported as a bug: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23558
The right thing to do is to restore the go and search buttons immediately and consider reintroducing the new search box after it has been thoroughly tested. Is there any reason not to do this?
-- אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי Amir Elisha Aharoni
"We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace." - T. Moore _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Unfortunately, I can't test what I just wrote in that last e-mail, because I can't seem to connect to Wikipedia. I will need to find that link to that technical page that is updated when there are problems.
http://techblog.wikimedia.org/
No, nothing there. Maybe it is just me?
Carcharoth
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Carcharoth carcharothwp@googlemail.com wrote:
The link to Special:Search is the magnifying glass icon next to (or in) the search box.
To get "Search" instead of "Go", do what Magnus Manske suggested a few days ago:
"just type your search query, then hit the "cursor up" key to select the last point in the dropdown box, which is the good ol' search function. Hit enter, and there you go."
It seems this is no longer possible?
Strange, as it was possible before and even announced here:
http://techblog.wikimedia.org/tag/usability-vector-search/
"The “Search” and “Go” buttons are gone, but their functionality live on. As you type, search suggestions are offered and accessible via the mouse or keyboard using the up and down arrow keys. “Go” is still the default action, executed by pressing the enter key on the keyboard. To perform a full-text search, users can click on the “containing” option within the search suggestions or press the up arrow key on the keyboard."
But pressing the down button does nothing any more. *sigh*
Carcharoth
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Carcharoth carcharothwp@googlemail.com wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Carcharoth carcharothwp@googlemail.com wrote:
The link to Special:Search is the magnifying glass icon next to (or in) the search box.
To get "Search" instead of "Go", do what Magnus Manske suggested a few days ago:
"just type your search query, then hit the "cursor up" key to select the last point in the dropdown box, which is the good ol' search function. Hit enter, and there you go."
It seems this is no longer possible?
Strange, as it was possible before and even announced here:
http://techblog.wikimedia.org/tag/usability-vector-search/
"The “Search” and “Go” buttons are gone, but their functionality live on. As you type, search suggestions are offered and accessible via the mouse or keyboard using the up and down arrow keys. “Go” is still the default action, executed by pressing the enter key on the keyboard. To perform a full-text search, users can click on the “containing” option within the search suggestions or press the up arrow key on the keyboard."
But pressing the down button does nothing any more. *sigh*
Yeah, they replaces A&B with C&D, then silently removed D. Be thankful that you still have C, you ungrateful user, you!!!!!
Magnus
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Magnus Manske magnusmanske@googlemail.com wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Carcharoth carcharothwp@googlemail.com wrote:
<snip>
But pressing the down button does nothing any more. *sigh*
Yeah, they replaces A&B with C&D, then silently removed D. Be thankful that you still have C, you ungrateful user, you!!!!!
:-)
I would be grateful if I could access Wikipedia at all at the moment. :-(
The suggestions in comment 9 at the bugzilla linked in the original post in this thread make a great deal of sense:
* Pressing the Enter key [or] clicking the magnifier in an empty should bring the user to Special:Search.
[I think this is already what happens]
* Pressing the Enter key in a box with text should do "Go" if a page by that name exists and "Search" if there's no such page.
[I think this is already what happens]
* Pressing the magnifier in a box with text should do "Search" in any case.
[This is the bit that doesn't happen - at the moment, pressing the magnifier results in a "Go"]
Carcharoth
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Magnus Manske magnusmanske@googlemail.com wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Carcharoth carcharothwp@googlemail.com wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Carcharoth carcharothwp@googlemail.com wrote:
The link to Special:Search is the magnifying glass icon next to (or in) the search box.
To get "Search" instead of "Go", do what Magnus Manske suggested a few days ago:
"just type your search query, then hit the "cursor up" key to select the last point in the dropdown box, which is the good ol' search function. Hit enter, and there you go."
It seems this is no longer possible?
Strange, as it was possible before and even announced here:
http://techblog.wikimedia.org/tag/usability-vector-search/
"The “Search” and “Go” buttons are gone, but their functionality live on. As you type, search suggestions are offered and accessible via the mouse or keyboard using the up and down arrow keys. “Go” is still the default action, executed by pressing the enter key on the keyboard. To perform a full-text search, users can click on the “containing” option within the search suggestions or press the up arrow key on the keyboard."
But pressing the down button does nothing any more. *sigh*
Yeah, they replaces A&B with C&D, then silently removed D. Be thankful that you still have C, you ungrateful user, you!!!!!
Magnus
The down arrow still works for me. If you click the magnifying glass (without terms in the search box), you get to the conventional text search page. I'm not sure changing the default from "Go!" to text search is the answer, though - and adding another button would be confusing. Maybe if the Go page had a "Not the result you wanted? Click here to search by text" prompt at the top?
Nathan
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 2:42 PM, Nathan nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
Maybe if the Go page had a "Not the result you wanted? Click here to search by text" prompt at the top?
That would work as well. I also find throwing a random extra term into the search helps focus it and takes you to the search page as once you add more search terms, it is unlikely to be an exact page title (though it might sometimes be a redirect). Frankly, I'd like to be able to turn autocomplete off (on Google as well) as I mostly find it more of a pain than a help, and it clashes with the local autocomplete that looks at what I typed in the past, which is often more helpful that what the system thinks I am trying to type.
Anyone know how to resolve clashes between local autocompletes and server-side autocompletes?
Carcharoth
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 2:42 PM, Nathan nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
<snip>
The down arrow still works for me.
Whoops. I meant "clicking the *up* arrow no longer works for me".
In my original post (which Magnus replied to) I had mentioned the down arrow when I meant the up arrow.
You can't even click on the "containing" bit either, because that is no longer there in the drop down options.
Carcharoth
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 2:42 PM, Nathan nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not sure changing the default from "Go!" to text search is the answer, though - and adding another button would be confusing. Maybe if the Go page had a "Not the result you wanted? Click here to search by text" prompt at the top?
That sounds good to me.
User:Bodnotbod
Carcharoth wrote:
I suppose the idea is that most people using that search box want "go" functionality,
Many tech-savvy editors, perhaps, but certainly not most readers.
not "search" functionality, but seeing as Google's default is "search" not "go", I suspect more people are used to getting a list of search results and clicking the top one than might be realised.
Indeed. If there's to be one box, clearly it should be "Search", not "Go". (And the search results page already has a "Wikipedia has an article on %s" link right at the top, if there's an exact match. So, retconned, "Go" is/was kinda like the Google "I'm feeling lucky" button.)
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 17:40, Steve Summit scs@eskimo.com wrote:
Carcharoth wrote:
I suppose the idea is that most people using that search box want "go" functionality,
Many tech-savvy editors, perhaps, but certainly not most readers.
not "search" functionality, but seeing as Google's default is "search" not "go", I suspect more people are used to getting a list of search results and clicking the top one than might be realised.
Indeed. If there's to be one box, clearly it should be "Search", not "Go". (And the search results page already has a "Wikipedia has an article on %s" link right at the top, if there's an exact match. So, retconned, "Go" is/was kinda like the Google "I'm feeling lucky" button.)
... Yes, it makes a lot of sense that there would be such a button in Wikipedia, because quite a lot of the people who type "obama" probably just want the article about the president (but someone should research how many exactly). Forcing them to see a list of results and have them click on the first one wastes some time.
But it also makes sense to be able to run a full-text search as easily as possible.
-- אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי Amir Elisha Aharoni
"We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace." - T. Moore
Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 17:40, Steve Summit scs@eskimo.com wrote:
Carcharoth wrote:
not "search" functionality, but seeing as Google's default is "search" not "go", I suspect more people are used to getting a list of search results and clicking the top one than might be realised.
Indeed. If there's to be one box, clearly it should be "Search", not "Go". (And the search results page already has a "Wikipedia has an article on %s" link right at the top, if there's an exact match. So, retconned, "Go" is/was kinda like the Google "I'm feeling lucky" button.)
... Yes, it makes a lot of sense that there would be such a button in Wikipedia, because quite a lot of the people who type "obama" probably just want the article about the president (but someone should research how many exactly). Forcing them to see a list of results and have them click on the first one wastes some time.
But it also makes sense to be able to run a full-text search as easily as possible.
I rarely "feel lucky" with Google.
The search function should also make clear what Boolean options are available.
The importance of beta systems can be misleading. Most of us who are not techno-geeks feel clueless about what is being done there, and are satisfied with a system that is familiar and works without any surprises. Even editing ".js" files is beyond us.
The Classic skin was the standard when I first joined, and I'm happy to stick with it.
Ec
On 19 May 2010 15:51, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
... Yes, it makes a lot of sense that there would be such a button in Wikipedia, because quite a lot of the people who type "obama" probably just want the article about the president (but someone should research how many exactly). Forcing them to see a list of results and have them click on the first one wastes some time.
But it also makes sense to be able to run a full-text search as easily as possible.
I think - with my librarian hat on, here - readers seemed to quite like the old "mixed search" functionality, which defaulted to "go" with a matching header and falls back on "search" otherwise. Having two buttons may well be confusing, but making them just use search at the expense of that direct leap is a regressive step as well.
Bear in mind that Google (mentioned somewhere above) is not really a good comparison here; it's a search engine looking over a very wide range of sources. As such, you don't just want a single result, because it's very unlikely that a single result will reflect the bulk of what people are looking for. I mean, I've searched on "obama" - do I want the White House website, or a photo, or news stories about what he's done today, or blogs vituperating about him? I may want to read something that likes them, or something that's opposed to them, or I may not really care about the slant and just want something suitable for a nine-year-old.
But in a more restricted domain like Wikipedia, there is one heading as an entry point for a topic, with one article under it - there's no real secondary entries in most cases, and only one viewpoint presented. If what you've searched on is a valid topic heading, it makes sense to take you direct to the material under that heading, since we only have the one "type" of article present.
It's also not that unusual for comparable reference works. Using the default search settings, the (excellent) Oxford Dictionary of National Biography takes you straight to the article if there's one person with that name, and only falls back on search if you've given a partial name or an ambiguous one. The Oxford English Dictionary, likewise, leaps straight to the result if there's one fitting perfectly, and broadens out to "search results" if not.
On the other hand, Britannica does a search even when there's an obvious first article, but then that search is more akin to Google - the results also include their image collection and some subsidiary resources, which we choose not to highlight in initial search results.
----
Relatedly, a proposal!
Search box, two buttons. One, "search" or "go", acts as the old mixed-search "go" button - it is a direct leap to that title, else falling back on the search. The second button is "advanced"; it takes the content of the search box and puts it directly into special:search, and then presents that along with links to Commons, wikisource, etc, and - prominently - the various advanced-search options (search project space, etc).
Thoughts?
On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 2:10 PM, Andrew Gray andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk wrote:
Relatedly, a proposal!
Search box, two buttons. One, "search" or "go", acts as the old mixed-search "go" button - it is a direct leap to that title, else falling back on the search. The second button is "advanced"; it takes the content of the search box and puts it directly into special:search, and then presents that along with links to Commons, wikisource, etc, and - prominently - the various advanced-search options (search project space, etc).
Thoughts?
I like that better than some other possibilities.
If we're in a proposal mood: Why not make it go, but if it go-es rather than takes you to special search put a small box of other search results above the article. (along with your advanced button, and an obvious close X to get rid of it if you're planning on printing or saving the article)
So you still get the one step GO behaviour, but you also get a one step search behaviour... and finding more advanced search controls is never hard.
One weakness of this is that care must be taken to avoid the case where the go works but the user misses the fact that the article they want is on the screen. One possibility would be to preserve the go result in the search list. Wastes a line, but if the user misses that the result is already there it only wastes a click for them.
On 20 May 2010 19:19, Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
If we're in a proposal mood: Why not make it go, but if it go-es rather than takes you to special search put a small box of other search results above the article. (along with your advanced button, and an obvious close X to get rid of it if you're planning on printing or saving the article)
Yes, I like this. If the page has been got to via search then display a search bar, like the current situation where if the page has been reached via a redirect it has a redirect note.
Is mediawiki currently capable of detecting this?
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 6:20 AM, Carcharoth carcharothwp@googlemail.com wrote: ...
To get "Search" instead of "Go", do what Magnus Manske suggested a few days ago:
"just type your search query, then hit the "cursor up" key to select the last point in the dropdown box, which is the good ol' search function. Hit enter, and there you go."
....
This function was disabled because of this bug http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29/Archive_... https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23498 If you typed too fast, it would cut-off letters.
Quiddity
p.s. on-wiki feedback about search seems to be coagulating at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:User_experience_feedback/search_box http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/May_2010_skin_ch...
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 6:37 PM, quiddity pandiculation@gmail.com wrote:
p.s. on-wiki feedback about search seems to be coagulating at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:User_experience_feedback/search_box http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/May_2010_skin_ch...
Thanks, though I'm not sure coagulating is quite the word you were looking for! That implies the feedback, after an initial flow is slowing down and turning into a solid, static mass. Maybe focusing or congregating?
Carcharoth