--- Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren(a)yahoo.com> wrote: "Stopped arguing" -- Nobody bothered to answer the last email or to really deal with the issue of POV. Is this how consensus works, eh? ~S~ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

--- Brion Vibber <brion(a)pobox.com> wrote: The problem is the implied validation of likely POV material by Wikipedia should it allow it to be uploaded *en masse. I have no problem with it being added *by hand. I for one dont want to see Wikipedia favoritism going toward taking sides in an ethnic dispute-- with POV numbers disguised as "statistics." Im sure there are other who agree with me, despite their silence. Theres also the issue that these number according to their source are under "Moral copyright" -- something that perhaps Alex (not just the non-lawyers) should comment on. Respectfully to all, ~S~ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

On Sat, 2003-09-20 at 15:44, Steve Vertigum wrote: Have you anything better that can be uploaded en masse? The bot's being set up now. It's only a few hundred pages, which is peanuts to a project this size. They can be improved individually or en masse if there's anything more than empty talk. -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

--- Steve Vertigum <utilitymuffinresearch2(a)yahoo.com> wrote: And can we consult a solicitor on the copyright issue? The central objection is to include "statistical" data on Israel, while there is not some similar data dealing with "occupied territories" for refugees. To add data about Israel irrespective of any date about refugees would be to prejudice the argument-- it is yet another small victory for those who want to "legitimize" by propagation of information (like MLP) the Israeli side of the equasion-- this time on Wikipedia. Go ahead and add it-- I still havent heard anybody challenge my principles here. Once again, this would represent a way to establish legitimacy for a state which has violated more international sanctions than any other, has legalized torture, and still asks people to regard its behaviours as sacrosact and saintly. There is every good reason to postpone any action on this -- the project has gone along fine for years without them. Until some of the more fluid concerns are dealt with -- siezed lands, illegitimate territories, etc. I find it disappointing that people her fail to have the cajones to adhere to basic principle. They are just numbers after all. With due respect, ~S~ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003, Steve Vertigum wrote: You haven't heard anyone dispute this because it's irrelevant to the matter. You are arguing POV, which belongs to the appropriate Talk: page, or to the meta page that LDan created over on meta. Steve, take the matter to the appropriate place. Geoff

The US doesn't have data on illegal immigrants, yet we still allow its data to be on 30,000 pages. Should we say that since the US doesn't have data on illegal immigrants, by using their data, we are allowing their argument of saying that illegal immigrants shouldn't be counted is good? Of course not. And if you dispute that, it has already been decided by precident and changing that decision would require the deletion of thousands of pages with the creation of a new bot that's potentially destructive. LDan __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

Steve Vertigum wrote: 69 municipalities, 141 local councils, and 53 regional councils, for a total of 263 articles. The local councils and regional councils contain smaller towns within them, but I don't have data on them, so at present any information about them will have to be added manually. -- Adam Raizen

On Sun, 2003-09-21 at 11:04, Steve Vertigum wrote: I've no idea whether they're in Adam's data or not, but if they _exist_, they _exist_ and this fact should be noted. Steve, do you *HAVE THIS DATA*? If you *HAVE IT*, you can add it. If you don't have it, please see about finding it, because we'd all love to have it in the 'pedia, but you seem to be the most interested. That gives you the responsibility for satisfying your own interests and getting the data. Write to the UN. Write to the Palestinian Authority. Write to whatever watchdog, peace, justice, and relief organizations you think might have information, and *get it* and *add it*. BE BOLD IN UPDATING PAGES! -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Delirium wrote: Just to clarify, and to give Steve more ammunition to attack the data :-), there's no data on *Palestinians* in the territories, but there is data on Israeli settlements. (That is, it's data on citizens of Israel, so it includes data on Druze in the Golan and Arabs in East Jerusalem.) For the settlements in the territories, the fact that they're in the territories is noted in the article. If anyone has data on Ramallah, Nablus, etc., please add it. It's just that the Israeli government doesn't collect it. -- Adam Raizen

I disagree. That should be on one page that is linked to from each of the pages, which Adam is already doing. RickK Daniel Ehrenberg <littledanehren(a)yahoo.com> wrote: --- Adam Raizen wrote: Before Steve gets into his screaming rants, I think we should come up with constructive solutions. Maybe you should add a notice on all of the pages that they only refer to citizens of Israel. LDan __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l(a)Wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software

--- Adam Raizen <araizen(a)newmail.net> wrote: Well that certainly says it all. :| Brion's point is well taken -- cprompt's is not. Im glad to hear that the number of articles is rather small -- only a few hundred -- meaning that what takes Adam one fell swoop will take me only a couple years to edit, etc. :) In all honesty I cant fault the use of these stats as a starting point-- just nobody get in my way when I edit them -- with the claim that these numbers are more legitimate or official. I look forward to it-- its of course easier to bulldoze over things than it is to build them. Seriously, I appreciate the honest and attemtps to answer the unanswerable--(Be glad you have someone to represent an opposing view) Ga'bless you all -- except you C'prompt, you jerk. -S- __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

On Sun, 2003-09-21 at 23:00, Steve Vertigum wrote: The color of my face is best described as crimson. I meant that off-list to Adam, and the word jerk was intended lightheartedly. I tried to reply to my own posting to explain that, after I realized I had addressed the list..only that time, the reply WAS offlist, and shortly after I received a reply. I apologize for being offensive and insulting, even if (and especially if) it was targetted at someone who was not intended to hear it. Here's the original message I meant to send. From: cprompt <cprompt(a)tmbg.org> Reply-To: cprompt(a)tmbg.org To: cprompt(a)tmbg.org Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Re: Break Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:53:48 +0000 On Sun, 2003-09-21 at 18:49, cprompt wrote: to hehe..that was meant to be offlist to Adam. Before I get lashed (as I should be), I knew that I shouldn' tbe using the word jerk. A better phrase would be "playing devil's advocate", which is more at what Steve seemed to be doing, with the what-if scenarios and arguing for NPOV, even if others didn't deem it to be NPOV. I felt that Adam would interpret it as light-hearted as I meant it, but I don't think that others on the list would feel that way. Attached is a JPG of how red my face is! :-) (#FF0000, i think)

-- cprompt <cprompt(a)tmbg.org> wrote: Fair enough. ~S~ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com

What if someone made a computer program to assemble the pages, then manually uploaded them. What if they were really fast at looking up data and typing? Where do you draw the line? What's the difference? LDan __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com