User:Stifle is representing Wikipedia in a live radio debate on
NewsTalk Radio (Ireland) tonight at 7pm. His first live media
experience. Wish him luck :-)
You can stream it from http://newstalk.ie/ . (The 32kbps WinAmp stream
worked fine for me in VLC.)
(forwarding to wmuk-l for interest ... we don't have an .ie list yet, do we?)
- d.
*Sam Korn* smoddy at gmail.com
<wikien-l%40lists.wikimedia.org?Subject=%5BWikiEN-l%5D%20Neutrality%20enforc…>
*Fri May 8 20:37:10 UTC 2009*
This is the key point, I think. We don't have an absolute definition
of neutrality. We don't even have a "I know it when I see it" kind of
system. Neutrality -- everywhere -- is a work in progress. Now,
SlimVirgin recognises this, which is why the proposal reads
"However, looking at an editor's contributions as a whole, it should
be clear to any reasonable, and reasonably well-informed, onlooker
that the editor is regularly and substantively trying to be fair to
both sides."
That is obviously an attempt to move away from requiring neutrality
and towards requiring a good-faith effort towards neutrality, which is
the only way the proposal could work.
That's exactly right. All this group would be looking for are good-faith
efforts to edit in accordance with the NPOV policy. It's not an attempt to
control content, but behaviour. Perhaps we should change the title to
reflect that.
Yes, it could be gamed, but it would be such a hassle for the gamers that
only the most determined would do it, and the most determined won't be
stopped by any process we put in place.
If people think the mailing list is too cabalistic, we can get rid of that.
The question is whether the spirit of the proposal might work. The details
can always be changed.
Also, bear in mind that the proposal is that this would be an *experiment*
regarding the I/P articles, because nothing else has worked. It could be
time-limited to ensure it doesn't turn into a permanent fixture, or get
expanded, without further community input.
Sarah
On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 2:02 PM, SlimVirgin <slimvirgin at gmail.com
<https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l>> wrote:
>* That's exactly right. All this group would be looking for are good-faith
*>* efforts to edit in accordance with the NPOV policy. It's not an attempt to
*>* control content, but behaviour. Perhaps we should change the title to
*>* reflect that.
*
*stevertigo* wrote:
> You lost me. If you say its all about the content, I'd be on board. You say
> its about "behaviour[-alism]," and I go now elsewhere to let you rethink the
> idea entirely.
Controlling content = "this article should or should not say X"
Controlling behaviour = "this editor should or should not do X"
In that sense, this proposal is about behaviour, because it is about
good-faith editing (behaviour) and not the result of it (content).
However, the whole content v. behaviour thing is something of a false
distinction. ArbCom prides itself on not controlling content,
but it does it all the time indirectly by controlling who can edit,
ruling on what counts as a reliable source, etc.
This is a proposal to enforce behaviour that upholds our own core
content policy, and there's no problem with that tension.
In fact, it's quite strange that none of our core content policies are
currently enforced, except for BLPs.
Sarah
I've started a proposal to enforce neutral editing on Israel-Palestine
articles, which could be extended to other intractable disputes if it works.
Input would be much appreciated.
See [[Wikipedia:Neutrality enforcement]].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutrality_enforcement
Sarah
In a message dated 5/8/2009 1:30:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
george.herbert(a)gmail.com writes:
> Is that the Tuesday There-Is-No-Cabal-Cabal, the Blue
> There-Is-No-Cabal-Cabal, or Mrs Cake?>>
> ----------
The Cabal is a myth.
Please provide your address so that one of our staff can visit you for
instruction.
Will "War is Peace" Johnson
**************
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322931x1201367171/aol?redir=htt…
bcd=May5509AvgfooterNO115)
In a message dated 5/8/2009 1:37:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
smoddy(a)gmail.com writes:
> (One additional problem is that it will create bureaucracy --
> Wikipedians love bureaucracy and this would turn into something like a
> rolling Israel-Palestine ArbCom. I don't think that that would be a
> positive change.)>>
------------------------------------
Fork fork whose got the article fork!!
Wiki-with-a-bit-of-knol-pedia.com
Allow multiple articles WITH a pov...
That way each side can fight in their own resettlement camp, instead of us
trying to force together conflicting sides who haven't agreed in a thousand
years or so.
Will "Satan isn't really such a bad guy, just misunderstood" Johnson
**************
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322931x1201367171/aol?redir=htt…
bcd=May5509AvgfooterNO115)
To the new group of enforcers, please elect one member of your Supreme
Council to attend our next meeting.
Will "the shadow BEHIND the shadow" Johnson
**************
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322931x1201367171/aol?redir=htt…
bcd=May5509AvgfooterNO115)
Here's the New York Times in an article about Nikola Tesla:
Today, his work tends to be poorly known among scientists,
though some call him an intuitive genius far ahead of his
peers. Socially, his popularity has soared, elevating him
to cult status.
Books and Web sites abound. Wikipedia says the inventor
obtained at least 700 patents.
[http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/05/science/05tesla.html]
Everyone knows how reliable Wikipedia is, and cited this way,
the journalist doesn't even have to do any absolute verification
of the "at least 700 patents" figure. (And if it's inflated,
well, that's understandable enough, since the inventor has been
"elevated to cult status", and everyone knows that Wikipedia
is the free encyclopedia anyone can edit.)
Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote:
> geni wrote:
>> 2009/5/5 <wjhonson(a)aol.com>:
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: FT2 <ft2.wiki(a)gmail.com>
>>> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
>>> Sent: Tue, 5 May 2009 12:35 am
>>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Twitterpedia will win
>>>
>>> Redundant text - "the X war was a war" duh :) Try this:
>>>
>>> "The Peloponnesian War (Ancient Greece, 431-404BC), took place between
>>> Athens and its empire, against the Eponymous League led by Sparta. Rock
>>> on!">>
>>>
>>> ---------------------
>>> Why do you have to state "Ancient Greece" ? And remove "The"
>>> Also "was" is much shorter than "took place"
>>>
>>> "Peloponnesian War (431-404BC), Athens and its empire, against the
>>> Spartan-led Eponymous League."
>>>
>>>
>>
>> "Peloponnesian War (431-404BC), Athens and its empire vs Spartan-led
>> Eponymous League."
>>
>>
>
"Peloponnesian War (431-404BC), Athenian empire vs. Spartan-led forces."
Yours,
Jussi-Ville "This is SPARTA!!!" Heiskanen