WikiEN-l April 2004

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65 participants
130 discussions

"Ilk" defined. "Trolls and Flamers"? Sure Sheldon. Mirror mirror?
by Mr Paul Vogel 26 Apr '04

26 Apr '04

Some, like Sheldon, don't get sanctioned by Wikipedia for any such false, although indirect, "personal attacks" upon other Wikipedians? Maybe Sheldon, like Timwi, are of the same "ilk"? ------------------------------------------------------ Timwi wrote: >You could try to contribute to OpenFacts or >Disinfopedia instead (you >can Google for these)... maybe they won't "censor" >you. I'm pretty sure they will. In the spirit of collegiality, though, I'd like to suggest that Wikipedia refrain from passing their trolls and flamers on to other sites. Would you like it if Disinfopedia or OpenFacts recommended that THEIR trolls visit Wikipedia? --Sheldon Rampton __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25� http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash

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LYNCH MOB against Paul Vogel-A WHO's WHO within the ilk!
by Mr Paul Vogel 26 Apr '04

26 Apr '04

A "Who's Who" of the "ilk" that has been slandering, lying hypocritically, and bearing false witness against me, and in a deliberately false attempt to just have me blocked, banned, and censored: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitrati… Obviously, by checking the "history" of this case, it is clear to see just who and whom are the censorious lying hypocrites, and just who and whom are against such pov and bigoted censorship and DOUBLE-STANDARDS, and lying hypocrisy and slander against me. Best regards, Paul Vogel http://www.cosmotheism.net __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25� http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash

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(no subject)
by Mohan Ravichandran 26 Apr '04

26 Apr '04

Hi, This will hopefully lighten the tense situation in the mailing list. Poem by Ogden Nash: The cow is of the bovine ilk One end moo, the other end milk Ilk was a synonym for same in the middle ages but now means type or kind. That being said, at the risk of being impugned, I think that Mr Paul Vogel's usage of the word ilk is jarring and incorrect. Mohan Ravichandran

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Re: Paul Vogel's anti-Semitism?
by Sheldon Rampton 26 Apr '04

26 Apr '04

Timwi wrote: >You could try to contribute to OpenFacts or >Disinfopedia instead (you >can Google for these)... maybe they won't "censor" >you. I'm pretty sure they will. In the spirit of collegiality, though, I'd like to suggest that Wikipedia refrain from passing their trolls and flamers on to other sites. Would you like it if Disinfopedia or OpenFacts recommended that THEIR trolls visit Wikipedia? --Sheldon Rampton

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"Ilk" refined for Fred.
by Mr Paul Vogel 26 Apr '04

26 Apr '04

Fred, That was just an example of "sort", "kind" or "ilk". The "negative connotation" was only on the part of the author of the "sentence example" that was being used there to show how the word "ilk" could be used. "Ilk" therefore could be used "just as correctly" with either a "positive" or with a "neutral" connotation as with a "negative" one. If that "sort" or "kind" or "ilk" are actually and factually "lying and hypocritical and pov slanderous and censorious bigots", then that "sort" or that "kind" or that "ilk" actually should, IMHO, have "negative connotations", no? "Ilk", then, in that case is most appropriate. If you are going to edit here, Fred, you really should know the actual meaning of words, before making any such comments. Factual accuracy and a NPOV within articles is what I am really up to, and not pov "quarreliing and fussing". Maybe you should look in the mirror and then think about that fact and about your own self and about that "ilk" that is always trying to block, ban, and censor me, for only their own pov verses the Wiki NPOV? Paul Vogel http://www.cosmotheism.net __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25� http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash

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Arbitration: matter of Paul Vogel
by Mr Paul Vogel 26 Apr '04

26 Apr '04

Paul Vogel wrote: > "Paul Vogel wrote: a bunch of hysterics" > > Paul Vogel wrote a "bunch of hysterics"? or an ilk of > lying hypocrites have, David, in a bigoted attempt to > have me BANNED, BLOCKED, and CENSORED???? > > "Paul, I advise you to cease your campaign of flooding > the mailing list with your complaints." > > I advise you to cease your "personal insults" of > "hysterics". The mailing list needs to be made aware of this "ilk" or group of censorious pov bigots that are falsely attempting to block, ban, or censor me. I'm sorry if you were insulted by my use of the word "hysterics" but your messages did seem to me to be characterized by overwhelming emotional excess. Please note however, that I didn't call you "hysterical". I simply characterized your complaints as "hysterics". I do find it "interesting" that you have pov only "characterized" my complaints as being "hysterics", when the ones that are actually engaging in "hysterics" are an ilk of censorious pov bigots that are falsely slandering and lying, and hypocritically blocking, banning, and pov censoring me? > "They are inappropriately offensive and this list > is an inappropriate place to engage in such > arguments." > > It is offensive and inappropriate for you to defend > any such ilks censorship,lying hypocrisy, and selfish bigotry. Perhaps it is offensive or inappropriate of me to defend "ilks censorship", whatever that is, but that doesn't change the fact that your behavior was inappropriate and I don't see any evidence on your part to acknowledge that you are behaving inappropriately. This is about you, not me. It was both offensive and inappropriate for you to defend this "ilks" censorship, lying hypocrisy, and bigoted slander, and that same kind of biased pov "behavior" is actually about you and is not about me. > "If you have complaints about how you or your ideas > are being treated, I invite you to follow the > procedures outlined in > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution". > > I already had, and they fell on deaf ears, David. Your request for arbitration is still active. Once four arbitrators approve hearing the case, then the case will move forward into arbitration. This part of dispute resolution does not move quickly, so I advise you to be calm and patient while the matter is in arbitration. I have been both calm and patient but I will not be silenced by pov bigots and I will let everyone within the Wikipedia community know whether or not actual "justice" and actual "fairness" is being served and observed in my case, and without any biased pov DOUBLE-STANDARDS. > "The postings you have made to the mailing list today are not likely to be looked kindly upon by the members of the arbitration committee if your case should appear before them." > > Only if they themselves are bigots, and do refuse to > see the factual evidence that is made available to > them. Calling people names and making other ad hominem attacks is inappropriate. Your postings to the mailing list today contained such attacks in violation of Wikipedia policy. Those are facts that the arbitrators will consider. On the contrary, those are NOT the FACTS, they are only your own biased pov. The facts actually are that some here are only enforcing DOUBLE-STANDARDS, and some here are falsely slandering me in a bigoted and pov attempt to have me blocked, banned, and censored. Those are the actual facts that the arbitrators should really consider, if they are not bigoted pov censors and are not slanderous and lying hypocrites, themselves. > "I would like to point out to you that there have been > previous instances when exteremly upset Wikipedians > have gone on posting rampages making > wild accusations on the mailing list, as you have." > > I am sure that this has happened before, with other > innocent victims, and also with some well and with > some deserving "Trolls" and "Vandals", which I am NOT. I have not accused you of being a troll or vandal. I am just pointing out that your behavior on the mailing list is in violation of Wikipedia policy and you may be subject to sanctions such as banning as a result of your behavior. The "ilk" of which I have been speaking has falsely slandered and accused me of being a troll or vandal. The violations of Wiki Policy have been on the part of these pov hypocritical liars, bigots, and censors that are enforcing DOUBLE-STANDARDS within Wikipedia. If this "ilk" are NOT SUBJECT to sanctions based upon that "behavior" of violation of Wikipedia Policy then I will not abide by any such DOUBLE-STANDARDS and by any such UNFAIRNESS of SELECTIVE ENFORCEMENT of such POLICIES. Your beliefs and ideas that you want to include on Wikipedia are not in question here. In fact, I have no idea what they are as I haven't investigated this dispute at all except for reading your inappropriate postings to the mailing list. You have a right to your own pov opinion as to whether or not my postings to the mailing list are appropriate or not. I have seen such postings by others, and yourself included, that seemed equally "inappropriate" in my own pov. So what? > "All those users have either left Wikipedia or ended > up permanently banned." > > Indeed. > Do NOT throw out the good with the bad, as I do > actually suspect has really happened here and as often > as NOT. We here at Wikipedia believe that in order to participate here, you have to follow our guidelines and policies for behavior. If you fail to do so, you will be subject to sanctions. This information is very clearly stated on many pages on Wikipedia. I don't have any real problem with actually ever doing so, IF, they are being enforced without ANY pov bias and without ANY pov DOUBLE-STANDARDS. > "If you have any interest at all in continuing to > contribute to Wikipedia, I suggest you > start behaving within the policies and guidelines for behavior set by Wikipedia, EVEN IF you believe that > others are not obeying the policies." > > NO!!! > Either EVERYONE is TREATED EQUALLY, and without ANY > DOUBLE-STANDARDS, with those POLICIES, or this WIKI > PROJECT is being run by CENSOROUS and HYPOCRITICAL > LIARS and POV BIGOTS, David. This is a false dichotomy. There are many alternate possibilities. Really? What are those many other likely alternative possibilities? I don't think so. Also, again, this screaming and personal attacks are inappropriate. I am sorry you feel that Wikipedia is not well-run, but do you really believe that screaming on the mailing list is going to change any of that? I am neither "screaming" nor "personally attacking" anyone. Wikipedia will not be well-run if it does not enforce its own rules and without bias and without such DOUBLE-STANDARDS. Those on this mailing list may not wish to stay on board this project if they see any such biased pov bigotry and any such DOUBLE-STANDARDS of the enforcement of Wikipedia Policies and by any such an "ilk" of censorious and lying hypocrites and pov slanderous bigots. > "Two wrongs do not make a right." > > Then support the rights, and NOT the WRONGS. > BE a REAL MAN! I'm not supporting or rejecting anything. All I've done is point out to you that your behavior is unacceptable. It doesn't matter to me what anyone else did to make you behave this way. You pointing out my behavior, alone, as what is being "unacceptable" is just lying hypocrisy. I consider your pov bias as being "unacceptable". The only question here that I am considering is your behavior on the mailing list. I am trying to maintain civility here on the mailing list and you are compromising that civility with your name-calling. I have been quite "civil" on this mailing list, especially considering the actually false and the slanderous "name-calling" behavior of your own ilk, of lying hypocrites and censorious pov bigots, Fred. Let me be clear: I don't have an issue with you, I have an issue with your behavior. Likewise, with your own pov bias, and with the behavior of the bigoted pov "ilk" that is always slanderously and quite falsely attempting to have me blocked, banned, and censored here. > "Finally, since you seem to have totally flown off the > handle, I expect you are unlikely to do any of what I > ask." > > Indeed. You first. Lead by example. I do consider your own "person insult" pov of my having "totally flown off the handle" to just be another clear example of "the pot calling the kettle black", or just more "lying hypocrisy", on your own pov part. I'm not the one SCREAMING and calling people names, you are. I am actually doing neither. My caps are only to underline or to highlight my main points and they are not meant to mean screaming, whatsoever. > "Don't be surprised, then, when people treat you > abusively in response to your treating them > abusively." > > Indeed, but, you do always forget that it has been the other way around. Your own pov bias and lying hypocrisy is showing. The only matter that I have made any statement concerning is your behavior. Perhaps your claim of my being biased and hypocritical might hold some weight if there were another campaign of complaints being made to the mailing list that I was ignoring in favor of focusing on you. There already is, and as can be clearly seen in the pov "reactions" to my valid complaints on this here mailing list. I see no other such campaign; therefore your accusations of bias and hypocrisy are unfounded. You only "see" what you want to "see", and mostly due to your own pov bias, and no more and no less. I would like to add that the Wikipedia community is very forgiving. However, forgiveness is only shown to those who show remorse for their actions. No matter who you are, if you fail to follow the policies, then you will be subject to sanctions. I have done nothing to warrent any such "sanctions". Such Wiki Policies must be EQUALLY ENFORCED and without ANY DOUBLE-STANDARDS or selective BIAS or they are totally without any MERIT. Rule by FIAT is for TYRANTS and this Wiki community won't abide by any such TYRANTS for long. You have already admitted that you have attempted to elude those sanctions, which is also a violation of policy, regardless of whether the sanctions were applied appropriately or not. I do completely disagree. If the sanctions were based upon false pov slander, rather than upon the actual facts, which they were, then they have no validity, whatsoever. You are not above the rules here. Everyone is subject to them. Not from what I have seen here, the "ilk" that is attempting to block, ban, and censor me, do not seem to be "subject to them", whatsoever. I don't abide by ANY DOUBLE-STANDARDS of biased enforcement of the rules, anywhere. Unless you start now and show that you're willing to follow the policies and obey the rules, you should expect to be punished for your violations. Unless the rules are applied to EVERYONE EQUALLY, without DOUBLE-STANDARDS and without selective BIAS, the rules should NOT be followed by ANYONE, and NO ONE should also be punished for any such violations, period. You need to cease your inappropriate behavior, apologize, and promise that it won't happen again. You also need to promise that you will, starting now, obey all the rules and policies of Wikipedia. You should be a "REAL MAN" and start the healing process by being the first to admit your wrongs. My "behavior" has not been "inappropriate" here in the first place. Where and when it ever has been, "inappropriate" here, in my belief or pov, I have duly apologized. I do not apologize for whatever I do believe to be the TRUTH. I will abide by any such rules and policies that are enforced without any pov bias, or without DOUBLE-STANDARDS and otherwise, not. Finally, I have made the fourth agreement to hear your case, so your case is officially in arbitration now. I suggest you make your case on <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Paul_Vogel> and place evidence on <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Paul_Vogel/…> and the arbitrators will hear your case. I will do so and just as soon as I can. Thanks! :D Paul Vogel http://www.cosmotheism.net __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25� http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash

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"Ilk" defined for Fred.
by Mr Paul Vogel 26 Apr '04

26 Apr '04

"It's a word that comes out of old English, "tailors and their ilk" is equivalent to "tailors and such"." So what? This is the way I meant "ilk", Fred. Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary 3 entries found for ilk. To select an entry, click on it. ilk[1,pronoun]ilk[2,noun]ilk[3,pronoun] Main Entry: 2ilk Function: noun : SORT, KIND <the rejection of these books or others of like ilk -- Kathleen Molz> "However this word in modern times carries a strong negative connotation and violates our policy against personal attacks (without delivering any significant information). Basically just a throwaway piss word." Ilk has a "strong negative connotation"!!!??? LOL! :D On the contrary, it just and only means "sort" or "kind". It is neither any "personal attack" and nor is it any so-called "throwaway piss word". I have a question for you. Do you want to edit here? Or is quarreling and fussing what you are really up to. Think about it. I have the same question for you, Fred. If you are going to edit here, Fred, you really should know the actual meaning of words, before making any such comments. Factual accuracy and a NPOV within articles is what I am really up to, and not pov "quarreliing and fussing". Maybe you should look in the mirror and then think about that fact and about your own self and about that "ilk" that is always trying to block, ban, and censor me, for only their own pov verses the Wiki NPOV? Paul Vogel http://www.cosmotheism.net > From: Mr Paul Vogel <bannedneedle at yahoo.com> > Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org> > Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 07:21:06 -0700 (PDT) > To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org > Cc: bannedneedle at yahoo.com > Subject: [WikiEN-l] Paul Vogel's anti-Semitism? > > I highly recommend that you do look the word "ilk" > up in the dictionary, Fred, as it fits this lying and > hypocritical mob here that is falsely attempting to > have me blocked, banned, and censored __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25� http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash

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My reply to Michael Snow's personal feeling re: Wikipedia
by Mr Paul Vogel 26 Apr '04

26 Apr '04

Mr Paul Vogel wrote: >Indeed. >Do NOT throw out the good with the bad, as I do >actually suspect has really happened here and as often >as NOT, David. > "My personal feeling about Wikipedia is that sometimes it is necessary to "throw out the good with the bad." The "good", in this instance, I see as the contribution of alternative points of view that when appropriately presented bring our encyclopedia closer to NPOV." So Michael feels that "sometimes it is necessary to" throw out maintaining the NPOV with alternative pov's? When it does "suit" his or his ilk's own POV????? "The "bad", in contrast, is having someone direct numerous offensive statements at other Wikipedians." Michael Snow doesn't seem to think it "bad" when either he and his "ilk" direct numerous and FALSE offensive statements at other Wikipedians, though, does he? That is a "double-standard" that other Wikipedians might not appreciate, as I most certainly do NOT! "I am not going to weigh the good and bad brought to Wikipedia by Mr. Paul Vogel. That is for the arbitration committee to do." Indeed, and I will review with the same arbitration committee the good and bad brought to Wikipedia by NOT walking the TALK of maintaining the Wiki NPOV and of NOT enforcing Wiki Policies fairly and without such pov DOUBLE-STANDARDS, Michael. "But there is no reason to be ashamed of throwing out the good with the bad, if the bad is more than we can tolerate." When you in your pov can't tolerate the NPOV, that is? There is plenty to be "ashamed of" and if you or your own "ilk" or "group" just can't maintain any Wiki NPOV here and if one can't they should be the ones to actually "leave", or be blocked, banned, or censored from this Wiki Encyclopedia Project. "There are other sources of the same good (with the double meaning of "good" as in commodity), and we can get it without having to poison our community." The NPOV is NOT any commodity, anymore than the TRUTH is a commodity. How does maintaining the NPOV ever "poison" any "community", unless of course, your idea of "community" is based only and solely upon falsehood, upon lying hypocrisy, upon pov bigotry, and upon pov censorship of any alternative and therefore NPOV's? Paul Vogel http://www.cosmotheism.net __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25� http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash

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Paul Vogel's anti-Semitism?
by Mr Paul Vogel 26 Apr '04

26 Apr '04

"If you have complaints and can back them up with evidence please set them forth on the page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_Arbitration/Paul_Vogel" Of course, I do have many complaints and I can back them up with evidence and I will set them forth on the linked page, above, as well as here. "However, I highly recommend you lose the word, "ilk"." I highly recommend that you do look the word "ilk" up in the dictionary, Fred, as it fits this lying and hypocritical mob here that is falsely attempting to have me blocked, banned, and censored. "I tend to read it as, "The Jews"." Are you saying that "The Jews" are this "ilk", Fred? If the shoe fits, then yes. If not, then no. Many of this "ilk" are "Jews", but, the "behavior" of "lying hypocrisy", of "slander", of "personal insults" and of "double-standards" and of bigoted pov "censorship" are the actual "defining characteristics" of this "mob" or "ilk" or "group" that is attempting to falsely block, ban, and censor me. "What do you mean by using that word in the way you do?" An "ilk" is a group. The "ilk" or "group" that is trying to block, ban, or to censor me that has falsely slandered, personally insulted, have lied, and have been hypocritical, that have given false witness, that have reverted articles for their own biased and bigoted pov and more than 3-times in a day, etc., and that have only "selectively enforced" many Wiki Policies, against me, ad nauseum. That ilk. Paul Vogel http://www.cosmotheism.net > From: Mr Paul Vogel <bannedneedle at yahoo.com> > Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at Wikipedia.org> > Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 07:37:26 -0700 (PDT) > To: wikien-l at Wikipedia.org > Cc: bannedneedle at yahoo.com > Subject: [WikiEN-l] Paul Vogel's anti-Semitism? > > Paul Vogel's anti-Semitism? > > What about Steve and his own ilks typical > bigoted and selfish CENSORSHIP of any > non-Kosher or alternative POV's? > > http://www.natvan.com/pdf/04-24-04.pdf > > This same ilk of lying and hypocritcal censorous > bigots are slandering me to have me banned, blocked, > and censored. > > Paul Vogel > > http://www.cosmotheism.net > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25? > http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash > _______________________________________________ > WikiEN-l mailing list > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25� http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash

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Googlebombing by "activists" or CENSORIOUS POV BIGOTS????!!!
by Mr Paul Vogel 26 Apr '04

26 Apr '04

Paul Vogel's anti-Semitism? >> >> What about Steve and his own "ilks" typical >> bigoted and selfish CENSORSHIP of any >> non-Kosher or alternative POV's? >> >> http://www.natvan.com/pdf/04-24-04.pdf >> >> This same ilk of lying and hypocritcal censorous >> bigots are falsely slandering me to have me banned, blocked, and censored. >> >> Paul Vogel >> >> http://www.cosmotheism.net >> __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25� http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash

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WikiEN-l April 2004