Hey everyone! We have a first version of the quantities datatype available for testing now on test.wikidata.org. It still has a few rough edges that we need to fix before we can enable it on Wikidata but I wanted to give you a chance to test it now already and help find issues early. Here's a test property using the quantities datatype: https://test.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P63 Cheers Lydia

Perhaps automated constraint checking would be simpler to set up? We have this for some properties already: http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property_talk:P21 For population, for example, the check could be "is greater than or equal to 0, is a whole number" Andrew. On 22 November 2013 10:37, Lukas Benedix <benedix(a)zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

You are correct. John On Friday, 22 November 2013, Lukas Benedix wrote: As far as I know this is done by bots and not by the wikibase extension. Am I right with that? Lukas Am Fr 22.11.2013 13:46, schrieb Andrew Gray: &lt;benedix(a)zedat.fu-berlin.de <javascript:;>> wrote: define a numbers It still has a few rough edges that early. _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org <javascript:;> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l -- _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Lukas Benedix &lt;benedix(a)zedat.fu-berlin.de&gt; wrote: feedback +1 Helder _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

I don't want to feel like John Connor... hunted by a bot that comes after my edits and reverts them only because I entered 123.45 for a property that should be an integer. Am Fr 22.11.2013 21:56, schrieb Denny Vrandečić: It is either obvious that they should be entering only integers or positive numbers, in which case such feedback isn't helpful, or it might end up being too restrictive again. Who tells me that a system like this won't get used in order to force cities to have a population of an integer bigger than 10,000? I understand the wish and desire to restrict user input, but I would like to remind everyone that Wikidata comes from the wiki side, which adheres more to the 'let's gather input and then verify it' than the 'let's make everyone give us correct input in the first place' side. On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 11:24 AM, Helder . &lt;helder.wiki(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing listWikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Is it limiting your freedom, if a little popup comes up and tells you "maybe you should enter a positive integer here... if you insist on 123.45 press save, but the bots will come and revert your edit" Like a speed limit that is not limiting your freedom to speed, but maybe it reminds you to the consequences... Am Fr 22.11.2013 22:52, schrieb Denny Vrandečić: So instead better to limit your freedom to express yourself in the first place. I'd take the bot. At least in the history of the article it is recorded that it was tried to enter 123.45 for a population, and we can later figure out what was happening. Why not wait and see if this is really a problem? I wonder how many such mistakes will ever be entered, besides "jokes" and vandalism. And the latter is easier to catch if we don't require the pranksters to use data that sounds correct. Do we have any indication that contributors are being supported by a system that doesn't let them enter negative numbers for populations? On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 1:46 PM, Lukas Benedix &lt;benedix(a)zedat.fu-berlin.de _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing listWikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

I never said that it should not be possible to enter 'invalid' values. On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Lukas Benedix &lt;benedix(a)zedat.fu-berlin.de <mailto:benedix@zedat.fu-berlin.de>> wrote: feedback Btw. the notification should not look like this: http://lbenedix.monoceres.uberspace.de/screenshots/8dqpasghc3_2013-11-23_11… Am Sa 23.11.2013 02:42, schrieb Denny Vrandečić: > Wait, you're changing the discussion from 'the software should not > allow it' to 'there should be a popup telling you...'. > > The latter can be implemented by the community as additional > JavaScript (I am not saying if this is a good idea. I am not a big > fan of popups). The former is what I strongly advise against. > > > On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 5:27 PM, Lukas Benedix > &lt;benedix(a)zedat.fu-berlin.de <mailto:benedix@zedat.fu-berlin.de>> wrote: > > Is it limiting your freedom, if a little popup comes up and tells > you "maybe you should enter a positive integer here... if you > insist on 123.45 press save, but the bots will come and revert > your edit" > > Like a speed limit that is not limiting your freedom to speed, > but maybe it reminds you to the consequences... > > > Am Fr 22.11.2013 22:52, schrieb Denny Vrandečić: >> So instead better to limit your freedom to express yourself in >> the first place. >> >> I'd take the bot. At least in the history of the article it is >> recorded that it was tried to enter 123.45 for a population, and >> we can later figure out what was happening. >> >> Why not wait and see if this is really a problem? I wonder how >> many such mistakes will ever be entered, besides "jokes" and >> vandalism. And the latter is easier to catch if we don't require >> the pranksters to use data that sounds correct. Do we have any >> indication that contributors are being supported by a system >> that doesn't let them enter negative numbers for populations? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 1:46 PM, Lukas Benedix >> &lt;benedix(a)zedat.fu-berlin.de <mailto:benedix@zedat.fu-berlin.de>> >> wrote: >> >> I don't want to feel like John Connor... hunted by a bot >> that comes after my edits and reverts them only because I >> entered 123.45 for a property that should be an integer. >> >> >> Am Fr 22.11.2013 21:56, schrieb Denny Vrandečić: >>> It is either obvious that they should be entering only >>> integers or positive numbers, in which case such feedback >>> isn't helpful, or it might end up being too restrictive >>> again. Who tells me that a system like this won't get used >>> in order to force cities to have a population of an integer >>> bigger than 10,000? >>> >>> I understand the wish and desire to restrict user input, >>> but I would like to remind everyone that Wikidata comes >>> from the wiki side, which adheres more to the 'let's gather >>> input and then verify it' than the 'let's make everyone >>> give us correct input in the first place' side. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 11:24 AM, Helder . >>> &lt;helder.wiki(a)gmail.com <mailto:helder.wiki@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Lukas Benedix >>> &lt;benedix(a)zedat.fu-berlin.de >>> <mailto:benedix@zedat.fu-berlin.de>> wrote: >>> > The problem I see with this practice is that a user >>> doesn't get any feedback >>> >>> >>> +1 >>> >>> Helder >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>> Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>> <mailto:Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org> >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>> Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org> >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikidata-l mailing list >> Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> <mailto:Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikidata-l mailing list >> Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata-l mailing list > Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > <mailto:Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata-l mailing list > Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

I can see two solutions to have this implemented: -A: Gadgets with hard coded property specific rules. Very Wikidata specific solution.

-B: A generic constraint definition system for properties. No Wikidata specific JavaScript required but Wikidata specific rules on the properties would be defined by the community.

I would much rather prefer the second solution. And there are two ways to have that as well: -B1: Getting the JavaScript UI to read those property constraints before the Snak value gets sent to the backend for real, evaluating the value against the constraints, eventually notifying the user with a message instead of sending the value to the backend.

-B2: Having this integrated on backend level. (B1 Could be considered a clean non-wikidata specific solution of solution A above) I would prefer B2 since it would concern changes done directly via the API as well. Either way, this would be quite some work to be implemented, so I don't think we will see this any time soon.

As long as it is possible to override it. There are all kinds of strange corner cases that we need to accommodate. For instance in elections to the Senate of the Republic of Ireland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seanad_%C3%89ireann the votes are calculated to 3 decimal places!

On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 10:52 PM, Denny Vrandečić &lt;vrandecic(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: We will start with no constraints. I will not have the team spent time on this without us even knowing how much of an issue it is going to be and what kinds of constraints we need in the software if any. Cheers Lydia

you are looking for. Help on the coding side welcome.