Hi, there is items about Wikibase data model in Wikidata (created by me, but not only)
If I understand correctly, they could be cited in the semantic web as https://www.wikidata.org/entity/Q19798647
(If they are kept /o)
Tom²
Hi!
Hi, there is items about Wikibase data model in Wikidata (created by me, but not only)
If I understand correctly, they could be cited in the semantic web as https://www.wikidata.org/entity/Q19798647
What would be the purpose of these items? I.e., what is the intended usage?
Hi Thomas,
On 22.04.2015 20:06, Thomas Douillard wrote:
Hi, there is items about Wikibase data model in Wikidata (created by me, but not only)
If I understand correctly, they could be cited in the semantic web as https://www.wikidata.org/entity/Q19798647
"No value" is exactly that: not a value. It should not be confused with a (definite) value that is used with claims (as the item description seems to suggest). The reason why we introduced "no value" was to be able to say this without resorting to a "special value" to represent this.
You can also find some rationale about this in our article "Wikidata: a free collaborative knowledgebase" (see https://ddll.inf.tu-dresden.de/web/Article4002/en). Basically, the main point is that, if you are querying for two people with a common child, you wouldn't want to get pairs of people who both have "novalue" as a value for "child". The same is true for "some value" (sometimes referred to as "unknown value") -- again, if this would be a definite "special" value, and be treated like a value in queries, it would lead to wrong results.
Cheers,
Markus
(If they are kept /o)
Tom²
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OK, I did not think it might confuse users, the label needs to be changed.
It's of course not intended to use in statements which have no value, it's just an attempt to express wikibase data model in Wikidata. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q16354757 is not Wikibase Data model :)
I changed the label to ensure users would not confuse the items with the real values ...
2015-04-22 21:52 GMT+02:00 Markus Krötzsch markus@semantic-mediawiki.org:
Hi Thomas,
On 22.04.2015 20:06, Thomas Douillard wrote:
Hi, there is items about Wikibase data model in Wikidata (created by me, but not only)
If I understand correctly, they could be cited in the semantic web as https://www.wikidata.org/entity/Q19798647
"No value" is exactly that: not a value. It should not be confused with a (definite) value that is used with claims (as the item description seems to suggest). The reason why we introduced "no value" was to be able to say this without resorting to a "special value" to represent this.
You can also find some rationale about this in our article "Wikidata: a free collaborative knowledgebase" (see https://ddll.inf.tu-dresden.de/web/Article4002/en). Basically, the main point is that, if you are querying for two people with a common child, you wouldn't want to get pairs of people who both have "novalue" as a value for "child". The same is true for "some value" (sometimes referred to as "unknown value") -- again, if this would be a definite "special" value, and be treated like a value in queries, it would lead to wrong results.
Cheers,
Markus
(If they are kept /o)
Tom²
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Hi!
OK, I did not think it might confuse users, the label needs to be changed.
Yes, I think it should made clear that it should not be used for actual values.
It's of course not intended to use in statements which have no value, it's just an attempt to express wikibase data model in Wikidata. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q16354757 is not Wikibase Data model :)
Which reminds me of https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1061035 ...
Hehe, we should picture this idea in help page :) https://www.wikidata.org/entity/Q1061035 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1061035 is not a pipe.
2015-04-23 9:50 GMT+02:00 Stas Malyshev smalyshev@wikimedia.org:
Hi!
OK, I did not think it might confuse users, the label needs to be
changed.
Yes, I think it should made clear that it should not be used for actual values.
It's of course not intended to use in statements which have no value, it's just an attempt to express wikibase data model in Wikidata. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q16354757 is not Wikibase Data model :)
Which reminds me of https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1061035 ...
-- Stas Malyshev smalyshev@wikimedia.org
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Hoi, Sorry for being dense.. What is wrong with there being no value ? Having a "no value" is imho understanding only a complication of saying nothing... Why not say nothing in the first place ? Thanks, GerardM
On 22 April 2015 at 21:52, Markus Krötzsch markus@semantic-mediawiki.org wrote:
Hi Thomas,
On 22.04.2015 20:06, Thomas Douillard wrote:
Hi, there is items about Wikibase data model in Wikidata (created by me, but not only)
If I understand correctly, they could be cited in the semantic web as https://www.wikidata.org/entity/Q19798647
"No value" is exactly that: not a value. It should not be confused with a (definite) value that is used with claims (as the item description seems to suggest). The reason why we introduced "no value" was to be able to say this without resorting to a "special value" to represent this.
You can also find some rationale about this in our article "Wikidata: a free collaborative knowledgebase" (see https://ddll.inf.tu-dresden.de/web/Article4002/en). Basically, the main point is that, if you are querying for two people with a common child, you wouldn't want to get pairs of people who both have "novalue" as a value for "child". The same is true for "some value" (sometimes referred to as "unknown value") -- again, if this would be a definite "special" value, and be treated like a value in queries, it would lead to wrong results.
Cheers,
Markus
(If they are kept /o)
Tom²
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On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Sorry for being dense.. What is wrong with there being no value ? Having a "no value" is imho understanding only a complication of saying nothing... Why not say nothing in the first place ?
It is important for cases like the following for example: Source A says "X had a child" and source B says "X had no child".
Cheers Lydia
So the intention is to use Q19798647 as a random place holder specifically for Wikibase entities without a value, but not as a "no value" placeholder for a person? I think it is useful in the way you describe it, but I am curious how you would model the source B saying that "X had no child"
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Lydia Pintscher < lydia.pintscher@wikimedia.de> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Sorry for being dense.. What is wrong with there being no value ? Having
a
"no value" is imho understanding only a complication of saying nothing... Why not say nothing in the first place ?
It is important for cases like the following for example: Source A says "X had a child" and source B says "X had no child".
Cheers Lydia
-- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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Hey :)
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com wrote:
I think it is useful in the way you describe it, but I am curious how you would model the source B saying that "X had no child"
Like this: https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q4115189&oldid=212444514
Cheers Lydia
Don't use Q19798647 The item is just a description of the concept ! on Wikidata, there is a way to set an unknow value to a claim.
here is how to set this special value on a claim in the UI, in french : to https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikidata_pas_de_valeur.png
You must click to the little blue icon on the left of the label.
2015-04-23 11:46 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com:
So the intention is to use Q19798647 as a random place holder specifically for Wikibase entities without a value, but not as a "no value" placeholder for a person? I think it is useful in the way you describe it, but I am curious how you would model the source B saying that "X had no child"
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Lydia Pintscher < lydia.pintscher@wikimedia.de> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Sorry for being dense.. What is wrong with there being no value ?
Having a
"no value" is imho understanding only a complication of saying
nothing...
Why not say nothing in the first place ?
It is important for cases like the following for example: Source A says "X had a child" and source B says "X had no child".
Cheers Lydia
-- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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Thanks! I added your example and Lydia's to the talk page here https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Talk:Q19798647
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 12:06 PM, Thomas Douillard < thomas.douillard@gmail.com> wrote:
Don't use Q19798647 The item is just a description of the concept ! on Wikidata, there is a way to set an unknow value to a claim.
here is how to set this special value on a claim in the UI, in french : to https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikidata_pas_de_valeur.png
You must click to the little blue icon on the left of the label.
2015-04-23 11:46 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com:
So the intention is to use Q19798647 as a random place holder specifically for Wikibase entities without a value, but not as a "no value" placeholder for a person? I think it is useful in the way you describe it, but I am curious how you would model the source B saying that "X had no child"
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Lydia Pintscher < lydia.pintscher@wikimedia.de> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Sorry for being dense.. What is wrong with there being no value ?
Having a
"no value" is imho understanding only a complication of saying
nothing...
Why not say nothing in the first place ?
It is important for cases like the following for example: Source A says "X had a child" and source B says "X had no child".
Cheers Lydia
-- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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Hoi, A question about the example... does that second source really care about this and what do we do when we know this to be incorrect. It is bad enough to want to know about the sum of all knowledge, I do not care for present and past mistakes. Thanks, GerardM
On 23 April 2015 at 12:15, Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks! I added your example and Lydia's to the talk page here https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Talk:Q19798647
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 12:06 PM, Thomas Douillard < thomas.douillard@gmail.com> wrote:
Don't use Q19798647 The item is just a description of the concept ! on Wikidata, there is a way to set an unknow value to a claim.
here is how to set this special value on a claim in the UI, in french : to https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikidata_pas_de_valeur.png
You must click to the little blue icon on the left of the label.
2015-04-23 11:46 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com:
So the intention is to use Q19798647 as a random place holder specifically for Wikibase entities without a value, but not as a "no value" placeholder for a person? I think it is useful in the way you describe it, but I am curious how you would model the source B saying that "X had no child"
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Lydia Pintscher < lydia.pintscher@wikimedia.de> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Sorry for being dense.. What is wrong with there being no value ?
Having a
"no value" is imho understanding only a complication of saying
nothing...
Why not say nothing in the first place ?
It is important for cases like the following for example: Source A says "X had a child" and source B says "X had no child".
Cheers Lydia
-- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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This is a question of point of vue and how to solves conflicted declaration, way larger than this. There could be disputes other who is really the father of something, this would be the same.
such a statement in Wikidata means: * This source says that this person has no child * This (other) source says that this person has some child
If one of the source has been proven wrong, then the statement must be marked deprecated. If it's undecided and still disputed whose right, then we keep the two statements. This is how Wikidata was conceptually built By Denny, Markus, Lydia and the others.
2015-04-23 12:19 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, A question about the example... does that second source really care about this and what do we do when we know this to be incorrect. It is bad enough to want to know about the sum of all knowledge, I do not care for present and past mistakes. Thanks, GerardM
On 23 April 2015 at 12:15, Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks! I added your example and Lydia's to the talk page here https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Talk:Q19798647
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 12:06 PM, Thomas Douillard < thomas.douillard@gmail.com> wrote:
Don't use Q19798647 The item is just a description of the concept ! on Wikidata, there is a way to set an unknow value to a claim.
here is how to set this special value on a claim in the UI, in french : to https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikidata_pas_de_valeur.png
You must click to the little blue icon on the left of the label.
2015-04-23 11:46 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com:
So the intention is to use Q19798647 as a random place holder specifically for Wikibase entities without a value, but not as a "no value" placeholder for a person? I think it is useful in the way you describe it, but I am curious how you would model the source B saying that "X had no child"
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Lydia Pintscher < lydia.pintscher@wikimedia.de> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Sorry for being dense.. What is wrong with there being no value ?
Having a
"no value" is imho understanding only a complication of saying
nothing...
Why not say nothing in the first place ?
It is important for cases like the following for example: Source A says "X had a child" and source B says "X had no child".
Cheers Lydia
-- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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On 23.04.2015 12:25, Thomas Douillard wrote:
This is a question of point of vue and how to solves conflicted declaration, way larger than this. There could be disputes other who is really the father of something, this would be the same.
such a statement in Wikidata means:
- This source says that this person has no child
- This (other) source says that this person has some child
If one of the source has been proven wrong, then the statement must be marked deprecated. If it's undecided and still disputed whose right, then we keep the two statements. This is how Wikidata was conceptually built By Denny, Markus, Lydia and the others.
Thoams and Lydia have already explained most of it, but for the record, one motivation for no-value was that Freebase used to have a special entity that was used as a value to express that there is no value. We wanted to avoid this (because it easily leads to wrong query results) by giving the community another option for saying this directly. Nevertheless, novalue is used sparingly, and only in places where it makes sense to explicitly record the absence of a value. For example, one might want to say that a politician is not a member of any party, but one would not add this information to every human.
Also, I don't think that no-value statements make much sense in qualifiers, besides maybe serving as "documentation" for other users who see this. Otherwise, it is usually assumed that qualifiers are "complete", that is, what is not there can safely be assumed to not hold. See my female mayor query: I just check that there is no end time to mayorship and this works perfectly well.
In contrast, searching for all politicians that have no statement about their political party given would return many politicians that actually had a party but for which we simply did not enter it yet. No-value is there to help Wikidata to work for such queries, which would otherwise be impossible as long as Wikidata is not complete (i.e., probably forever ;-).
Cheers,
Markus
Hi!
makes sense to explicitly record the absence of a value. For example, one might want to say that a politician is not a member of any party, but one would not add this information to every human.
One common example is George Washington (Q23). While most of the US presidents has been members of some political party, George Washington did not like the idea of the parties and refused to join one. Thus, https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q23#P102 features "no value".
Also, I don't think that no-value statements make much sense in qualifiers, besides maybe serving as "documentation" for other users who
I'm just about to write a long email about it :)
Hoi, That does not clarify it. So what would we say ... it is in dispute sure but the way we work is that we have a child as a known person. So sources may dispute to their hearts content.. It is a relation that goes both ways.. How do we say novalue because it has to be a person ... "John Doe" does not apply. Thanks, GerardM
On 23 April 2015 at 11:37, Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintscher@wikimedia.de wrote:
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Sorry for being dense.. What is wrong with there being no value ? Having
a
"no value" is imho understanding only a complication of saying nothing... Why not say nothing in the first place ?
It is important for cases like the following for example: Source A says "X had a child" and source B says "X had no child".
Cheers Lydia
-- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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In wikidata, the absence of a claim about something cannot mean the claim has no couterpart in reality, as Wikidata is an will always be incomplete.
For example if we have a series, maybe finished, maybe unfinished, we wil have claims that says:
Episode 2 follows Episode 1 Episode 3 follows Episode 2 ...
If for some reason we're sure that the series is other, we can state no value follows Episode 2
Which means "We're sure the series is other".
Otherwise this means "Wikidata do not know", for some reason there could be a following episode but noone updated Wikidata yet, for example.
2015-04-23 11:33 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, Sorry for being dense.. What is wrong with there being no value ? Having a "no value" is imho understanding only a complication of saying nothing... Why not say nothing in the first place ? Thanks, GerardM
On 22 April 2015 at 21:52, Markus Krötzsch markus@semantic-mediawiki.org wrote:
Hi Thomas,
On 22.04.2015 20:06, Thomas Douillard wrote:
Hi, there is items about Wikibase data model in Wikidata (created by me, but not only)
If I understand correctly, they could be cited in the semantic web as https://www.wikidata.org/entity/Q19798647
"No value" is exactly that: not a value. It should not be confused with a (definite) value that is used with claims (as the item description seems to suggest). The reason why we introduced "no value" was to be able to say this without resorting to a "special value" to represent this.
You can also find some rationale about this in our article "Wikidata: a free collaborative knowledgebase" (see https://ddll.inf.tu-dresden.de/web/Article4002/en). Basically, the main point is that, if you are querying for two people with a common child, you wouldn't want to get pairs of people who both have "novalue" as a value for "child". The same is true for "some value" (sometimes referred to as "unknown value") -- again, if this would be a definite "special" value, and be treated like a value in queries, it would lead to wrong results.
Cheers,
Markus
(If they are kept /o)
Tom²
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Hoi, For me it is obvious ... this search for perfection is an enemy of what is good in Wikidata. It destroys the results of queries. It is not usable and it is only of use in a very small percentage of cases.
Compare it with the "female mayor" question. Our issue is that we have not enough data in the first place and we should concentrate on making things easier to comprehend not weigh it down with the balast of discussions elsewhere. Thanks, GerardM
On 23 April 2015 at 11:56, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
In wikidata, the absence of a claim about something cannot mean the claim has no couterpart in reality, as Wikidata is an will always be incomplete.
For example if we have a series, maybe finished, maybe unfinished, we wil have claims that says:
Episode 2 follows Episode 1 Episode 3 follows Episode 2 ...
If for some reason we're sure that the series is other, we can state no value follows Episode 2
Which means "We're sure the series is other".
Otherwise this means "Wikidata do not know", for some reason there could be a following episode but noone updated Wikidata yet, for example.
2015-04-23 11:33 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, Sorry for being dense.. What is wrong with there being no value ? Having a "no value" is imho understanding only a complication of saying nothing... Why not say nothing in the first place ? Thanks, GerardM
On 22 April 2015 at 21:52, Markus Krötzsch <markus@semantic-mediawiki.org
wrote:
Hi Thomas,
On 22.04.2015 20:06, Thomas Douillard wrote:
Hi, there is items about Wikibase data model in Wikidata (created by me, but not only)
If I understand correctly, they could be cited in the semantic web as https://www.wikidata.org/entity/Q19798647
"No value" is exactly that: not a value. It should not be confused with a (definite) value that is used with claims (as the item description seems to suggest). The reason why we introduced "no value" was to be able to say this without resorting to a "special value" to represent this.
You can also find some rationale about this in our article "Wikidata: a free collaborative knowledgebase" (see https://ddll.inf.tu-dresden.de/web/Article4002/en). Basically, the main point is that, if you are querying for two people with a common child, you wouldn't want to get pairs of people who both have "novalue" as a value for "child". The same is true for "some value" (sometimes referred to as "unknown value") -- again, if this would be a definite "special" value, and be treated like a value in queries, it would lead to wrong results.
Cheers,
Markus
(If they are kept /o)
Tom²
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You should read the helpages Gerard sometimes :)
This is on the Wikidata plan since the beginning, it is usable since the beginning, and it will be queryable ... I really don't understand what bothers you.
2015-04-23 12:12 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, For me it is obvious ... this search for perfection is an enemy of what is good in Wikidata. It destroys the results of queries. It is not usable and it is only of use in a very small percentage of cases.
Compare it with the "female mayor" question. Our issue is that we have not enough data in the first place and we should concentrate on making things easier to comprehend not weigh it down with the balast of discussions elsewhere. Thanks, GerardM
On 23 April 2015 at 11:56, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
In wikidata, the absence of a claim about something cannot mean the claim has no couterpart in reality, as Wikidata is an will always be incomplete.
For example if we have a series, maybe finished, maybe unfinished, we wil have claims that says:
Episode 2 follows Episode 1 Episode 3 follows Episode 2 ...
If for some reason we're sure that the series is other, we can state no value follows Episode 2
Which means "We're sure the series is other".
Otherwise this means "Wikidata do not know", for some reason there could be a following episode but noone updated Wikidata yet, for example.
2015-04-23 11:33 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, Sorry for being dense.. What is wrong with there being no value ? Having a "no value" is imho understanding only a complication of saying nothing... Why not say nothing in the first place ? Thanks, GerardM
On 22 April 2015 at 21:52, Markus Krötzsch < markus@semantic-mediawiki.org> wrote:
Hi Thomas,
On 22.04.2015 20:06, Thomas Douillard wrote:
Hi, there is items about Wikibase data model in Wikidata (created by me, but not only)
If I understand correctly, they could be cited in the semantic web as https://www.wikidata.org/entity/Q19798647
"No value" is exactly that: not a value. It should not be confused with a (definite) value that is used with claims (as the item description seems to suggest). The reason why we introduced "no value" was to be able to say this without resorting to a "special value" to represent this.
You can also find some rationale about this in our article "Wikidata: a free collaborative knowledgebase" (see https://ddll.inf.tu-dresden.de/web/Article4002/en). Basically, the main point is that, if you are querying for two people with a common child, you wouldn't want to get pairs of people who both have "novalue" as a value for "child". The same is true for "some value" (sometimes referred to as "unknown value") -- again, if this would be a definite "special" value, and be treated like a value in queries, it would lead to wrong results.
Cheers,
Markus
(If they are kept /o)
Tom²
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Hoi, Yes you get both results at best and maybe arbitrarily only one never mind which one. It requires a query engine that is so smart that it is no longer the kind of query engine I know exists. Thanks, GerardM
On 23 April 2015 at 12:18, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
You should read the helpages Gerard sometimes :)
This is on the Wikidata plan since the beginning, it is usable since the beginning, and it will be queryable ... I really don't understand what bothers you.
2015-04-23 12:12 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, For me it is obvious ... this search for perfection is an enemy of what is good in Wikidata. It destroys the results of queries. It is not usable and it is only of use in a very small percentage of cases.
Compare it with the "female mayor" question. Our issue is that we have not enough data in the first place and we should concentrate on making things easier to comprehend not weigh it down with the balast of discussions elsewhere. Thanks, GerardM
On 23 April 2015 at 11:56, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
In wikidata, the absence of a claim about something cannot mean the claim has no couterpart in reality, as Wikidata is an will always be incomplete.
For example if we have a series, maybe finished, maybe unfinished, we wil have claims that says:
Episode 2 follows Episode 1 Episode 3 follows Episode 2 ...
If for some reason we're sure that the series is other, we can state no value follows Episode 2
Which means "We're sure the series is other".
Otherwise this means "Wikidata do not know", for some reason there could be a following episode but noone updated Wikidata yet, for example.
2015-04-23 11:33 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, Sorry for being dense.. What is wrong with there being no value ? Having a "no value" is imho understanding only a complication of saying nothing... Why not say nothing in the first place ? Thanks, GerardM
On 22 April 2015 at 21:52, Markus Krötzsch < markus@semantic-mediawiki.org> wrote:
Hi Thomas,
On 22.04.2015 20:06, Thomas Douillard wrote:
Hi, there is items about Wikibase data model in Wikidata (created by me, but not only)
If I understand correctly, they could be cited in the semantic web as https://www.wikidata.org/entity/Q19798647
"No value" is exactly that: not a value. It should not be confused with a (definite) value that is used with claims (as the item description seems to suggest). The reason why we introduced "no value" was to be able to say this without resorting to a "special value" to represent this.
You can also find some rationale about this in our article "Wikidata: a free collaborative knowledgebase" (see https://ddll.inf.tu-dresden.de/web/Article4002/en). Basically, the main point is that, if you are querying for two people with a common child, you wouldn't want to get pairs of people who both have "novalue" as a value for "child". The same is true for "some value" (sometimes referred to as "unknown value") -- again, if this would be a definite "special" value, and be treated like a value in queries, it would lead to wrong results.
Cheers,
Markus
(If they are kept /o)
Tom²
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You should ask the people that are at this time developping it, and Lydia, how they will handle this. Because they will, it's in the Wikibase DataModel, the same as qualifiers.
We will probably be provided with options on how we want to handle ranks, unknown values and so on when we will build a query in Wikibase.
2015-04-23 12:27 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, Yes you get both results at best and maybe arbitrarily only one never mind which one. It requires a query engine that is so smart that it is no longer the kind of query engine I know exists. Thanks, GerardM
On 23 April 2015 at 12:18, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
You should read the helpages Gerard sometimes :)
This is on the Wikidata plan since the beginning, it is usable since the beginning, and it will be queryable ... I really don't understand what bothers you.
2015-04-23 12:12 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, For me it is obvious ... this search for perfection is an enemy of what is good in Wikidata. It destroys the results of queries. It is not usable and it is only of use in a very small percentage of cases.
Compare it with the "female mayor" question. Our issue is that we have not enough data in the first place and we should concentrate on making things easier to comprehend not weigh it down with the balast of discussions elsewhere. Thanks, GerardM
On 23 April 2015 at 11:56, Thomas Douillard thomas.douillard@gmail.com wrote:
In wikidata, the absence of a claim about something cannot mean the claim has no couterpart in reality, as Wikidata is an will always be incomplete.
For example if we have a series, maybe finished, maybe unfinished, we wil have claims that says:
Episode 2 follows Episode 1 Episode 3 follows Episode 2 ...
If for some reason we're sure that the series is other, we can state no value follows Episode 2
Which means "We're sure the series is other".
Otherwise this means "Wikidata do not know", for some reason there could be a following episode but noone updated Wikidata yet, for example.
2015-04-23 11:33 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, Sorry for being dense.. What is wrong with there being no value ? Having a "no value" is imho understanding only a complication of saying nothing... Why not say nothing in the first place ? Thanks, GerardM
On 22 April 2015 at 21:52, Markus Krötzsch < markus@semantic-mediawiki.org> wrote:
Hi Thomas,
On 22.04.2015 20:06, Thomas Douillard wrote:
> Hi, there is items about Wikibase data model in Wikidata (created by > me, > but not only) > > If I understand correctly, they could be cited in the semantic web as > https://www.wikidata.org/entity/Q19798647 >
"No value" is exactly that: not a value. It should not be confused with a (definite) value that is used with claims (as the item description seems to suggest). The reason why we introduced "no value" was to be able to say this without resorting to a "special value" to represent this.
You can also find some rationale about this in our article "Wikidata: a free collaborative knowledgebase" (see https://ddll.inf.tu-dresden.de/web/Article4002/en). Basically, the main point is that, if you are querying for two people with a common child, you wouldn't want to get pairs of people who both have "novalue" as a value for "child". The same is true for "some value" (sometimes referred to as "unknown value") -- again, if this would be a definite "special" value, and be treated like a value in queries, it would lead to wrong results.
Cheers,
Markus
> (If they are kept /o) > > Tom² > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikidata-l mailing list > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > >
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