For more than a year I am asking users to add their articles to Wikidata when they have written it. That seems succesful, they added their articles more and more and did understand how to do that. Until recently. Now I get more and more complaints from users that they do not understand any more how to add a newly written article to an item. They seem to have tried, but fail in actual getting it managed. That is a worse development! Romaine _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

For more than a year I am asking users to add their articles to Wikidata when they have written it. That seems succesful, they added their

more and more and did understand how to do that. Until recently. Now I

more and more complaints from users that they do not understand any more

to add a newly written article to an item. They seem to have tried, but

in actual getting it managed. That is a worse development!

Am 12.10.2014 17:02, schrieb Romaine Wiki: > Hello Lydia, > > This is a different problem from the other issue I described in an

> I notice two different problems that occur with the same version. One

Linking a newly created article would be done using the "add links"

the bottom of the sidebar. That should not have changed at all in the

couple of months, as far as I know. Can you identify which change exactly is the problem, and why it is

Am 12.10.2014 17:02, schrieb Romaine Wiki: > Hello Lydia, > > This is a different problem from the other issue I described in an

> I notice two different problems that occur with the same version. One

Linking a newly created article would be done using the "add links"

the bottom of the sidebar. That should not have changed at all in the

couple of months, as far as I know. Can you identify which change exactly is the problem, and why it is

2) There is no way of making an interwikilink for a redirect, and the German Wikipedia's "afrikanische Pflaume" is currently a redirect to "Prunus"

There are multiple issues with linking the German Wikipedia's "afrikanische Pflaume" to the French Wikipedia's "safou": 1) A tree can only interwikilink to a tree or combined article on the tree + fruit and a fruit can only interwikilink to a fruit or a combined article on the tree + fruit (this is the "single vs. multiple concepts" problem Gerard refers to) 2) There is no way of making an interwikilink for a redirect, and the German Wikipedia's "afrikanische Pflaume" is currently a redirect to "Prunus" On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 4:59 PM, rupert THURNER <rupert.thurner(a)gmail.com _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

We have the relevant information on :en in "hatmaking". Why create a stub? Why require the duplication? Surely it is for client wikis to decide how they want to treat topics, either in a big omnibus article, or in a lot of little articles -- that is a decision for them. But we should be helping readers moving from one language to another to find the nearest equivalent in that language -- no matter whether in that language it is a small part of a large article, or a separate article in its own right. -- James. On 16/10/2014 09:29, Jane Darnell wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

There is one big field, where redirects make sense: lists (of characters) or members of bands *Rob Bourdon (Q19205) have article in 38 languages. There is also part of article de:Linkin_Park, which is about him and [[de:Rob Bourdon]] is redirect. *Character X from tv series Y is not notable enough to have separate article, but it should have own item on wikidata. And there is article about him in some small wiki. When you search , you found that there is one article, but fifteen redirects to section (List of Y characters#X) *Fred Weasley (Q13359612) have one sitelink (to redirect), but informations are in en, cs, fr, es, it, pt, pl, da and others too. But when I want to find relevant articles, I must try each language separate. With alowed redirects, I find it. JAnD 2014-10-16 11:06 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell <jane023(a)gmail.com>om>: _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

We have the relevant information on :en in "hatmaking". Why create a stub? Why require the duplication? Surely it is for client wikis to decide how they want to treat topics, either in a big omnibus article, or in a lot of little articles -- that is a decision for them. But we should be helping readers moving from one language to another to find the nearest equivalent in that language -- no matter whether in that language it is a small part of a large article, or a separate article in its own right. -- James. On 16/10/2014 09:29, Jane Darnell wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Redirects are cheap. On en-wiki the creation of new redirects is positively encouraged. There is also a category on en-wiki, "Redirects with possibilities" for redirects that have the potential to be built into stand-alone articles. I would have thought the (possibly automated) creation of large numbers of redirects similarly on other language wikis would be something that might be rather welcome. Remember also that it's not changing the item structure on Wikidata, just what it can point to on the client wikis. -- James. On 16/10/2014 13:44, P. Blissenbach wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

I don't understand why you can't make an item for each character or each person in a band. As long as you have a valid reference (IMDb? Book? out of my league here) you can make an item for anything On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Jan Dudík &lt;jan.dudik(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > There is one big field, where redirects make sense: lists (of > characters) or members of bands > > *Rob Bourdon (Q19205) have article in 38 languages. There is also part > of article de:Linkin_Park, which is about him and [[de:Rob Bourdon]] > is redirect. > *Character X from tv series Y is not notable enough to have separate > article, but it should have own item on wikidata. And there is article > about him in some small wiki. When you search , you found that there > is one article, but fifteen redirects to section (List of Y > characters#X) > *Fred Weasley (Q13359612) have one sitelink (to redirect), but > informations are in en, cs, fr, es, it, pt, pl, da and others too. But > when I want to find relevant articles, I must try each language > separate. With alowed redirects, I find it. > > JAnD > > 2014-10-16 11:06 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell &lt;jane023(a)gmail.com&gt;om>: >> With a view to supporting mobile, why bundle concepts needlessly into > large >> articles? Why not split them out and use the typical Wikipedia blue link >> methodology to link them together? Some of the English Wikipedia articles >> are very unwieldy on mobile and you need to scroll through lots of stuff > to >> get the information you are looking for. In the case you are describing >> however, I find the article rather short and I can't even see any > reference >> to the occupation of hatmaker at all unless you are referring to a list > of >> notable hatters and milliners (which also seems rather short). >> >> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 10:40 AM, James Heald &lt;j.heald(a)ucl.ac.uk&gt; wrote: >>> >>> We have the relevant information on :en in "hatmaking". >>> >>> Why create a stub? Why require the duplication? >>> >>> Surely it is for client wikis to decide how they want to treat topics, >>> either in a big omnibus article, or in a lot of little articles -- that > is a >>> decision for them. >>> >>> But we should be helping readers moving from one language to another to >>> find the nearest equivalent in that language -- no matter whether in > that >>> language it is a small part of a large article, or a separate article > in its >>> own right. >>> >>> -- James. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 16/10/2014 09:29, Jane Darnell wrote: >>>> >>>> James, >>>> I totally agree with Gerard and I totally disagree with you. The fact >>>> that >>>> the English Wikipedia does not have an article on "hatmaker" is not >>>> something that Wikidata should support, and the energy you are wasting >>>> with >>>> your talk about redirects could better be spent on making a stub for >>>> "hatmaker" on the English wikipedia. >>>> Jane >>>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:34 AM, James Heald &lt;j.heald(a)ucl.ac.uk&gt; > wrote: >>>> >>>>> I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what > I >>>>> am >>>>> saying. >>>>> >>>>> To be clearer: >>>>> >>>>> * Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the *sitelink* >>>>> not >>>>> the item. >>>>> * It is no more "Wikipedia centric" than noting that a link goes to a >>>>> featured article in some language, or any other badge. >>>>> >>>>> I'm not proposing items be introduced for "new things that do not > exist" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently. >>>>> >>>>> * "Hatmaking" is a real-world concept that exists. We have an article >>>>> on >>>>> it in English Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking >>>>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375 >>>>> >>>>> * "Hatmaker" is a real-world concept that exists. We have an article >>>>> on it on lots of Wikipedias. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649 >>>>> >>>>> The two concepts are not the same. One is a skill, the other is an >>>>> occupation. They have a P425 / P na relationship. >>>>> >>>>> It therefore would not make any sense to add "Hatmaking" as a label to >>>>> the >>>>> "Hatmaker" item. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for "Hatmaker". >>>>> >>>>> What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmaker&redirect=no >>>>> with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined > for >>>>> "Hatmaking" >>>>> >>>>> What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis, >>>>> linking >>>>> to their articles on "Hatmaker", and then add sitelinks to the >>>>> "Hatmaking" >>>>> item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To give another example: >>>>> >>>>> On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell, >>>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell >>>>> which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the engraver. >>>>> (cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for >>>>> tests) >>>>> >>>>> On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell. Instead >>>>> there >>>>> is a redirect, > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Daniel_Havell& >>>>> redirect=no, which points to a section of an article on the Havell >>>>> family: >>>>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havell_family#Daniel_Havell >>>>> >>>>> Wikidata should have an item on Daniel Havell, which points to this >>>>> redirect. >>>>> >>>>> That way, when the Creator template on Commons wants a link target on >>>>> :enwiki, the Wikidata item can supply it. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> As I said, Gerard, I think you misunderstood what I was talking about. >>>>> >>>>> I hope it is clearer and makes more sense to you now. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> All best, >>>>> >>>>> James. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 16/10/2014 06:15, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hoi, >>>>>> I seriously fail to see how an example how Wikidata can be abused is > a >>>>>> good >>>>>> thing. Redirects are imho seriously stupid. They are utterly > Wikipedia >>>>>> centric and they introduce new things that do not exist. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> - a redirect page to three pages is also called an > disambiguation >>>>>> page.. >>>>>> We do support them. They are not redirects. >>>>>> - when a redirect page refers to an article by another name, it >>>>>> only >>>>>> takes a label to add the needed link to the subject >>>>>> >>>>>> Seriously WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS? >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> GerardM >>>>>> >>>>>> On 14 October 2014 23:22, James Heald &lt;j.heald(a)ucl.ac.uk&gt; wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Creating sitelinks to redirects: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As I understand it, the classic workaround for this is to >>>>>>> * go to client wiki, >>>>>>> * edit the page temporarily so that it is not a redirect >>>>>>> * add a sitelink >>>>>>> * edit the page again to turn it back into a redirect. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thus, at least as I understand it, there is no overwhelming > technical >>>>>>> barrier to creating a sitelink to a redirect. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Looking back through the archives of Project Chat, it seems to be a >>>>>>> perennial thing that we ought to permit sitelinks to redirects, eg >>>>>>> most >>>>>>> recently at >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Should_ >>>>>>> all_occupations_be_separate_items_from_their_skills.3F >>>>>>> >>>>>>> which led to Kaldari filing Bugzilla: 71859 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But I'm not quite sure exactly what he wants solved, if sitelinks to >>>>>>> redirects are /already/ possible. (Albeit requiring the slightly >>>>>>> roundabout process above). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps what is needed is just a concerted RfC, to confirm once and >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> all that it is indeed the community view that such sitelinks are >>>>>>> useful, >>>>>>> and should be created. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But there are a couple of things it would be nice to have, to > confirm >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> practice: >>>>>>> * A badge (eg the letter R on a red disc) to indicate that the >>>>>>> sitelink >>>>>>> to language xx is linking to a redirect, not a primary article. >>>>>>> * On an item, a new property "redirected to", taking another item > as >>>>>>> its >>>>>>> object, and the identity of the wiki as a qualifier. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> After that, we should go out creating this redirects on client wikis >>>>>>> en >>>>>>> masse, and site-linking them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This would solve a huge number of issues we currently have, where > wiki >>>>>>> A >>>>>>> has lots of little articles, whereas wiki B has the same content all >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> sections of one article; or where wiki A and wiki B have chosen >>>>>>> different >>>>>>> primary items for their treatment of a field. (For example: the >>>>>>> profession >>>>>>> 'hatmaker' or the activity 'hatmaking'). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Allowing and encouraging sitelinks to redirect is the key to > keeping a >>>>>>> clean item structure on Wikidata, while still connecting readers to >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> most relevant pages in their preferred alternative languages. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- James. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 14/10/2014 21:00, Jane Darnell wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> nope >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Smolenski Nikola < > smolensk(a)eunet.rs&gt; >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Citiranje Jane Darnell &lt;jane023(a)gmail.com&gt;om>: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2) There is no way of making an interwikilink for a redirect, > and >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> German Wikipedia's "afrikanische Pflaume" is currently a redirect >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> "Prunus" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You should still be able to make an interwiki link for a redirect >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> old >>>>>>>>> way, >>>>>>>>> are you not? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>> Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >> >>

I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what I am saying. To be clearer: * Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the *sitelink* not the item. * It is no more "Wikipedia centric" than noting that a link goes to a featured article in some language, or any other badge. I'm not proposing items be introduced for "new things that do not exist" Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently. * "Hatmaking" is a real-world concept that exists. We have an article on it in English Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375 * "Hatmaker" is a real-world concept that exists. We have an article on it on lots of Wikipedias. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649 The two concepts are not the same. One is a skill, the other is an occupation. They have a P425 / P na relationship. It therefore would not make any sense to add "Hatmaking" as a label to the "Hatmaker" item. At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for "Hatmaker". What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmaker&redirect=no with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page. At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined for "Hatmaking" What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis, linking to their articles on "Hatmaker", and then add sitelinks to the "Hatmaking" item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages. To give another example: On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the engraver. (cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for tests) On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell. Instead there is a redirect, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/ index.php?title=Daniel_Havell&redirect=no, which points to a section of an article on the Havell family: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havell_family#Daniel_Havell Wikidata should have an item on Daniel Havell, which points to this redirect. That way, when the Creator template on Commons wants a link target on :enwiki, the Wikidata item can supply it. As I said, Gerard, I think you misunderstood what I was talking about. I hope it is clearer and makes more sense to you now. All best, James. On 16/10/2014 06:15, Gerard Meijssen wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Jane I disagree. Sitelinks to wikipedia redirects are useful because they help one wikipedia get useful links to other wikipedias even where the structure of the wikipedias is different, without having to force the various wikipedias to follow the same structure. Your comment that wikipedias should change their policies and have one concept per article may be correct but it is a comment on wikipedia policy and should be addressed to the wikipedias. This list is for wikidata. Note that we also have wikidata redirects. These should be created whenever we merge two wikidata items so that external links to the 'merged' item will automagically link to the combined item so that wikidata urls are stable and persistent. Joe On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Jane Darnell &lt;jane023(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

I don't understand why you can't make an item for each character or each person in a band. As long as you have a valid reference (IMDb? Book? out of my league here) you can make an item for anything On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Jan Dudík &lt;jan.dudik(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: There is one big field, where redirects make sense: lists (of > characters) or members of bands > > *Rob Bourdon (Q19205) have article in 38 languages. There is also part > of article de:Linkin_Park, which is about him and [[de:Rob Bourdon]] > is redirect. > *Character X from tv series Y is not notable enough to have separate > article, but it should have own item on wikidata. And there is article > about him in some small wiki. When you search , you found that there > is one article, but fifteen redirects to section (List of Y > characters#X) > *Fred Weasley (Q13359612) have one sitelink (to redirect), but > informations are in en, cs, fr, es, it, pt, pl, da and others too. But > when I want to find relevant articles, I must try each language > separate. With alowed redirects, I find it. > > JAnD > > 2014-10-16 11:06 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell &lt;jane023(a)gmail.com&gt;om>: > >> With a view to supporting mobile, why bundle concepts needlessly into >> > large > >> articles? Why not split them out and use the typical Wikipedia blue link >> methodology to link them together? Some of the English Wikipedia >> articles >> are very unwieldy on mobile and you need to scroll through lots of stuff >> > to > >> get the information you are looking for. In the case you are describing >> however, I find the article rather short and I can't even see any >> > reference > >> to the occupation of hatmaker at all unless you are referring to a list >> > of > >> notable hatters and milliners (which also seems rather short). >> >> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 10:40 AM, James Heald &lt;j.heald(a)ucl.ac.uk&gt; >> wrote: >> >>> >>> We have the relevant information on :en in "hatmaking". >>> >>> Why create a stub? Why require the duplication? >>> >>> Surely it is for client wikis to decide how they want to treat topics, >>> either in a big omnibus article, or in a lot of little articles -- that >>> >> is a > >> decision for them. >>> >>> But we should be helping readers moving from one language to another to >>> find the nearest equivalent in that language -- no matter whether in >>> >> that > >> language it is a small part of a large article, or a separate article >>> >> in its > >> own right. >>> >>> -- James. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 16/10/2014 09:29, Jane Darnell wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> James, >>>> I totally agree with Gerard and I totally disagree with you. The fact >>>> that >>>> the English Wikipedia does not have an article on "hatmaker" is not >>>> something that Wikidata should support, and the energy you are wasting >>>> with >>>> your talk about redirects could better be spent on making a stub for >>>> "hatmaker" on the English wikipedia. >>>> Jane >>>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:34 AM, James Heald &lt;j.heald(a)ucl.ac.uk&gt; >>>> >>> wrote: > >> >>>> I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what >>>>> >>>> I > >> am >>>>> saying. >>>>> >>>>> To be clearer: >>>>> >>>>> * Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the >>>>> *sitelink* >>>>> not >>>>> the item. >>>>> * It is no more "Wikipedia centric" than noting that a link goes to a >>>>> featured article in some language, or any other badge. >>>>> >>>>> I'm not proposing items be introduced for "new things that do not >>>>> >>>> exist" > >> >>>>> >>>>> Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently. >>>>> >>>>> * "Hatmaking" is a real-world concept that exists. We have an >>>>> article >>>>> on >>>>> it in English Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking >>>>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375 >>>>> >>>>> * "Hatmaker" is a real-world concept that exists. We have an article >>>>> on it on lots of Wikipedias. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/ >>>>> Q18199649 >>>>> >>>>> The two concepts are not the same. One is a skill, the other is an >>>>> occupation. They have a P425 / P na relationship. >>>>> >>>>> It therefore would not make any sense to add "Hatmaking" as a label >>>>> to >>>>> the >>>>> "Hatmaker" item. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for "Hatmaker". >>>>> >>>>> What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmaker&redirect=no >>>>> with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined >>>>> >>>> for > >> "Hatmaking" >>>>> >>>>> What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis, >>>>> linking >>>>> to their articles on "Hatmaker", and then add sitelinks to the >>>>> "Hatmaking" >>>>> item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To give another example: >>>>> >>>>> On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell, >>>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell >>>>> which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the engraver. >>>>> (cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for >>>>> tests) >>>>> >>>>> On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell. Instead >>>>> there >>>>> is a redirect, >>>>> >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Daniel_Havell& > >> redirect=no, which points to a section of an article on the Havell >>>>> family: >>>>> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havell_family# > Daniel_Havell > >> >>>>> Wikidata should have an item on Daniel Havell, which points to this >>>>> redirect. >>>>> >>>>> That way, when the Creator template on Commons wants a link target on >>>>> :enwiki, the Wikidata item can supply it. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> As I said, Gerard, I think you misunderstood what I was talking >>>>> about. >>>>> >>>>> I hope it is clearer and makes more sense to you now. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> All best, >>>>> >>>>> James. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 16/10/2014 06:15, Gerard Meijssen wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hoi, >>>>>> I seriously fail to see how an example how Wikidata can be abused is >>>>>> >>>>> a > >> good >>>>>> thing. Redirects are imho seriously stupid. They are utterly >>>>>> >>>>> Wikipedia > >> centric and they introduce new things that do not exist. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> - a redirect page to three pages is also called an >>>>>> >>>>> disambiguation > >> page.. >>>>>> We do support them. They are not redirects. >>>>>> - when a redirect page refers to an article by another name, >>>>>> it >>>>>> only >>>>>> takes a label to add the needed link to the subject >>>>>> >>>>>> Seriously WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS? >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> GerardM >>>>>> >>>>>> On 14 October 2014 23:22, James Heald &lt;j.heald(a)ucl.ac.uk&gt; wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Creating sitelinks to redirects: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As I understand it, the classic workaround for this is to >>>>>>> * go to client wiki, >>>>>>> * edit the page temporarily so that it is not a redirect >>>>>>> * add a sitelink >>>>>>> * edit the page again to turn it back into a redirect. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thus, at least as I understand it, there is no overwhelming >>>>>>> >>>>>> technical > >> barrier to creating a sitelink to a redirect. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Looking back through the archives of Project Chat, it seems to be a >>>>>>> perennial thing that we ought to permit sitelinks to redirects, eg >>>>>>> most >>>>>>> recently at >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Should_ >>>>>>> all_occupations_be_separate_items_from_their_skills.3F >>>>>>> >>>>>>> which led to Kaldari filing Bugzilla: 71859 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But I'm not quite sure exactly what he wants solved, if sitelinks >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> redirects are /already/ possible. (Albeit requiring the slightly >>>>>>> roundabout process above). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps what is needed is just a concerted RfC, to confirm once and >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> all that it is indeed the community view that such sitelinks are >>>>>>> useful, >>>>>>> and should be created. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But there are a couple of things it would be nice to have, to >>>>>>> >>>>>> confirm > >> the >>>>>>> practice: >>>>>>> * A badge (eg the letter R on a red disc) to indicate that the >>>>>>> sitelink >>>>>>> to language xx is linking to a redirect, not a primary article. >>>>>>> * On an item, a new property "redirected to", taking another item >>>>>>> >>>>>> as > >> its >>>>>>> object, and the identity of the wiki as a qualifier. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> After that, we should go out creating this redirects on client >>>>>>> wikis >>>>>>> en >>>>>>> masse, and site-linking them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This would solve a huge number of issues we currently have, where >>>>>>> >>>>>> wiki > >> A >>>>>>> has lots of little articles, whereas wiki B has the same content >>>>>>> all >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> sections of one article; or where wiki A and wiki B have chosen >>>>>>> different >>>>>>> primary items for their treatment of a field. (For example: the >>>>>>> profession >>>>>>> 'hatmaker' or the activity 'hatmaking'). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Allowing and encouraging sitelinks to redirect is the key to >>>>>>> >>>>>> keeping a > >> clean item structure on Wikidata, while still connecting readers to >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> most relevant pages in their preferred alternative languages. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- James. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 14/10/2014 21:00, Jane Darnell wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> nope >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Smolenski Nikola < >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> smolensk(a)eunet.rs&gt; > >> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Citiranje Jane Darnell &lt;jane023(a)gmail.com&gt;om>: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2) There is no way of making an interwikilink for a redirect, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> and > >> the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> German Wikipedia's "afrikanische Pflaume" is currently a >>>>>>>>>> redirect >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> "Prunus" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You should still be able to make an interwiki link for a >>>>>>>>> redirect >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> old >>>>>>>>> way, >>>>>>>>> are you not? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>> Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>> >> >> >>

Hoi, I seriously fail to see how an example how Wikidata can be abused is a good thing. Redirects are imho seriously stupid. They are utterly Wikipedia centric and they introduce new things that do not exist. - a redirect page to three pages is also called an disambiguation page.. We do support them. They are not redirects. - when a redirect page refers to an article by another name, it only takes a label to add the needed link to the subject Seriously WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS? Thanks, GerardM On 14 October 2014 23:22, James Heald &lt;j.heald(a)ucl.ac.uk&gt; wrote: Creating sitelinks to redirects: > > As I understand it, the classic workaround for this is to > * go to client wiki, > * edit the page temporarily so that it is not a redirect > * add a sitelink > * edit the page again to turn it back into a redirect. > > Thus, at least as I understand it, there is no overwhelming technical > barrier to creating a sitelink to a redirect. > > > Looking back through the archives of Project Chat, it seems to be a > perennial thing that we ought to permit sitelinks to redirects, eg most > recently at > > https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Should_ > all_occupations_be_separate_items_from_their_skills.3F > > which led to Kaldari filing Bugzilla: 71859 > > > But I'm not quite sure exactly what he wants solved, if sitelinks to > redirects are /already/ possible. (Albeit requiring the slightly > roundabout process above). > > > Perhaps what is needed is just a concerted RfC, to confirm once and for > all that it is indeed the community view that such sitelinks are useful, > and should be created. > > > But there are a couple of things it would be nice to have, to confirm the > practice: > * A badge (eg the letter R on a red disc) to indicate that the sitelink > to language xx is linking to a redirect, not a primary article. > * On an item, a new property "redirected to", taking another item as its > object, and the identity of the wiki as a qualifier. > > > After that, we should go out creating this redirects on client wikis en > masse, and site-linking them. > > This would solve a huge number of issues we currently have, where wiki A > has lots of little articles, whereas wiki B has the same content all in > sections of one article; or where wiki A and wiki B have chosen different > primary items for their treatment of a field. (For example: the > profession > 'hatmaker' or the activity 'hatmaking'). > > > Allowing and encouraging sitelinks to redirect is the key to keeping a > clean item structure on Wikidata, while still connecting readers to the > most relevant pages in their preferred alternative languages. > > -- James. > > > > On 14/10/2014 21:00, Jane Darnell wrote: > > nope >> >> On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Smolenski Nikola &lt;smolensk(a)eunet.rs&gt; >> wrote: >> >> Citiranje Jane Darnell &lt;jane023(a)gmail.com&gt;om>: >> >>> >>> 2) There is no way of making an interwikilink for a redirect, and the >>>> German Wikipedia's "afrikanische Pflaume" is currently a redirect to >>>> "Prunus" >>>> >>>> >>> You should still be able to make an interwiki link for a redirect the >>> old >>> way, >>> are you not? >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>> Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l >>> >>> >>>

Hoi, Just for arguments sake I have included the information about Mr Havell to Wikidata. The result is certainly informative when seen from the Reasonator. [1] Any and all people known in the "Creator" template on Commons can and should have a Wikidata entry. When you are serious about the Havell family, you should make sure that all of them have full information in Wikidata as well BEFORE you complain about redirects to the Haswell family.[2] from English Wikipedia. As I said before, your point of view is English Wikipedia oriented and this is NOT English Wikipedia and it is NOT to promote the glory of English Wikipedia. It is to share in the sum of all knowledge and THAT has more dimensions than English only. Thanks, GerardM [1] https://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?q=Q18325155&lang=en [2] https://tools.wmflabs.org/reasonator/?find=havell On 16 October 2014 09:34, James Heald &lt;j.heald(a)ucl.ac.uk&gt; wrote: I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what I > am > saying. > > To be clearer: > > * Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the *sitelink* > not > the item. > * It is no more "Wikipedia centric" than noting that a link goes to a > featured article in some language, or any other badge. > > I'm not proposing items be introduced for "new things that do not exist" > > > Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently. > > * "Hatmaking" is a real-world concept that exists. We have an article on > it in English Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking > https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375 > > * "Hatmaker" is a real-world concept that exists. We have an article > on it on lots of Wikipedias. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649 > > The two concepts are not the same. One is a skill, the other is an > occupation. They have a P425 / P na relationship. > > It therefore would not make any sense to add "Hatmaking" as a label to > the > "Hatmaker" item. > > > At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for "Hatmaker". > > What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmaker&redirect=no > with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page. > > > At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined for > "Hatmaking" > > What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis, > linking > to their articles on "Hatmaker", and then add sitelinks to the > "Hatmaking" > item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages. > > > > To give another example: > > On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell, > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell > which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the engraver. > (cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for > tests) > > On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell. Instead > there > is a redirect, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Daniel_Havell& > redirect=no, which points to a section of an article on the Havell > family: > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havell_family#Daniel_Havell > > Wikidata should have an item on Daniel Havell, which points to this > redirect. > > That way, when the Creator template on Commons wants a link target on > :enwiki, the Wikidata item can supply it. > > > As I said, Gerard, I think you misunderstood what I was talking about. > > I hope it is clearer and makes more sense to you now. > > > All best, > > James. > > > > > On 16/10/2014 06:15, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > > Hoi, >> I seriously fail to see how an example how Wikidata can be abused is a >> good >> thing. Redirects are imho seriously stupid. They are utterly Wikipedia >> centric and they introduce new things that do not exist. >> >> >> - a redirect page to three pages is also called an disambiguation >> page.. >> We do support them. They are not redirects. >> - when a redirect page refers to an article by another name, it >> only >> takes a label to add the needed link to the subject >> >> Seriously WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS? >> Thanks, >> GerardM >> >> On 14 October 2014 23:22, James Heald &lt;j.heald(a)ucl.ac.uk&gt; wrote: >> >> Creating sitelinks to redirects: >> >>> >>> As I understand it, the classic workaround for this is to >>> * go to client wiki, >>> * edit the page temporarily so that it is not a redirect >>> * add a sitelink >>> * edit the page again to turn it back into a redirect. >>> >>> Thus, at least as I understand it, there is no overwhelming technical >>> barrier to creating a sitelink to a redirect. >>> >>> >>> Looking back through the archives of Project Chat, it seems to be a >>> perennial thing that we ought to permit sitelinks to redirects, eg most >>> recently at >>> >>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Should_ >>> all_occupations_be_separate_items_from_their_skills.3F >>> >>> which led to Kaldari filing Bugzilla: 71859 >>> >>> >>> But I'm not quite sure exactly what he wants solved, if sitelinks to >>> redirects are /already/ possible. (Albeit requiring the slightly >>> roundabout process above). >>> >>> >>> Perhaps what is needed is just a concerted RfC, to confirm once and for >>> all that it is indeed the community view that such sitelinks are >>> useful, >>> and should be created. >>> >>> >>> But there are a couple of things it would be nice to have, to confirm >>> the >>> practice: >>> * A badge (eg the letter R on a red disc) to indicate that the >>> sitelink >>> to language xx is linking to a redirect, not a primary article. >>> * On an item, a new property "redirected to", taking another item as >>> its >>> object, and the identity of the wiki as a qualifier. >>> >>> >>> After that, we should go out creating this redirects on client wikis en >>> masse, and site-linking them. >>> >>> This would solve a huge number of issues we currently have, where wiki >>> A >>> has lots of little articles, whereas wiki B has the same content all in >>> sections of one article; or where wiki A and wiki B have chosen >>> different >>> primary items for their treatment of a field. (For example: the >>> profession >>> 'hatmaker' or the activity 'hatmaking'). >>> >>> >>> Allowing and encouraging sitelinks to redirect is the key to keeping a >>> clean item structure on Wikidata, while still connecting readers to the >>> most relevant pages in their preferred alternative languages. >>> >>> -- James. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 14/10/2014 21:00, Jane Darnell wrote: >>> >>> nope >>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Smolenski Nikola &lt;smolensk(a)eunet.rs&gt; >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Citiranje Jane Darnell &lt;jane023(a)gmail.com&gt;om>: >>>> >>>> >>>>> 2) There is no way of making an interwikilink for a redirect, and >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>>> German Wikipedia's "afrikanische Pflaume" is currently a redirect to >>>>>> "Prunus" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> You should still be able to make an interwiki link for a redirect >>>>> the >>>>> old >>>>> way, >>>>> are you not? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>

One of the requirements is an article.

I think I requested P1472, I forgot all about it. It takes so long before

Right now we could make a page "attenborough brothers", put onlyinclude tags around the intro to all three articles, and boom, article! This would somewhat ameliorate the problem Andrew was talking about with incomplete linkage across languages.

david, i think you hit the major point here. at the end of the day it is a document management problem, and the idea to recombine contents is followed by some extensions, like books extension. would it make sense to use wikidata for such tasks as well? i am not convinced that it makes sense to go onto a sentence level, but paragraphs do imo make sense. alone because e.g. the german wikipedia often stores an item in a paragraph, what is stored in an article in the english wikipedia. redirects are managed in de:wp, and there is no notion of storing wrong redirects to cover typo's. of course there are some wikidata purists, like jane and gerard, who seem to be a little imprisoned in the original semantic mediawiki notation that every entry needs to be an article. one may even consider this opinion as correct in a greenfield approach where the contents is created from scratch. but - unfortunately this is not the case. wikidata came after wikipedia, and i consider it a fundamental failure of wikidata to not address the issue. rupert On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 1:03 AM, David Cuenca &lt;dacuetu(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: redirects ones current the articles content", can be thread should to _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

On Saturday, 18 October 2014, Gerard Meijssen &lt;gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: One of three requirements. Only one has to be true for an item to be notable. Please could you stop taking this out of context making it look like Wikidata requires articles for items. John Lewis -- John Lewis _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Gerard how do you, within wikidata, properly handle the case where an article is there on enwp, and a paragraph and a redirect to it is there on dewp? Rupert On Oct 18, 2014 1:21 PM, "Gerard Meijssen" &lt;gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

No James, redirects do not have templates or categories

If this Jackson Douglas is the best that you can do, you destroyed the argument that it has merit.

On 21 October 2014 07:13, Gerard Meijssen &lt;gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Gerard, I like you; but you're being a dick. Please desist. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

(1) There would be no change to the item structure on Wikidata in any way -- no change to the values of any of the item properties -- only some extra sitelinks. So I don't see *why* you think there would be any risk to Wikidata's "own integrity".

Citiranje James Heald &lt;j.heald(a)ucl.ac.uk&gt;uk>: Interestingly how no one mentions (or have I missed it?) what to me seems

the biggest problem, and that is the possibility that multiple Wikidata

link to a single Wikipedia article. If sitelinks to redirects are ever implemented, it would be imperative that

is checked that no two redirects lead to the same place.

On 22/10/2014 14:23, Smolenski Nikola wrote: to be items it It's no problem if multiple redirects link to the same place. For example, on en-wiki, we have Luke Havell (redirect) -> Havell family Robert Havell (redirect) -> Havell family Daniel Havell (redirect) -> Havell family etc It's no problem if we have different items Q(Luke Havell) -> Luke Havell (redirect) Q(Robert Havell) -> Robert Havell (redirect) Q(Daniel Havell) -> Daniel Havell (redirect) different items, for different people, sitelinked to different places on en-wiki, that happen to be redirects.

It's no problem if multiple redirects link to the same place. For example, on en-wiki, we have Luke Havell (redirect) -> Havell family Robert Havell (redirect) -> Havell family Daniel Havell (redirect) -> Havell family etc It's no problem if we have different items Q(Luke Havell) -> Luke Havell (redirect) Q(Robert Havell) -> Robert Havell (redirect) Q(Daniel Havell) -> Daniel Havell (redirect) different items, for different people, sitelinked to different places on en-wiki, that happen to be redirects.

Q(Coat of Arms of Novi Sad) -> Coat of Arms of Novi Sad -> Novi Sad Q(something) -> Coat of arms of Novi Sad -> Novi Sad Q(something) -> Coat of arms of novi sad -> Novi Sad