[Wikidata-l] Making Wikidata entries at the time of 'Article for Creation' publication

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Andy Mabbett

9 Mar 2014 9 Mar '14

9:44 p.m.

I have been helping with the backlog of "Article for Creation" requests on en.Wikipedia. It occurs to me that in doing so I often supply enough data to start a Wikidata entry (or, at least, to pre-populate one for further editing before saving). Please see : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Articles_for_creat… for more on this; help from a coder would be useful. Something for the hackathon, perhaps? -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Gerard Meijssen

10 Mar 10 Mar

5:10 a.m.

New subject: [Wikidata-l] Making Wikidata entries at the time of 'Article for Creation' publication

Hoi, You have it backwards, in my opinion at least. When someone is notable enough for a Wikipedia article, create a Wikidata item and include all the pertinent information for that person. You may even be surprised in finding that the person already exists. There are many people from the USA or the UK who have an article in a Wikipedia but not in the English Wikipedia. When the known information has been entered, you will find in the Reasonator a text generated based on the available information when the subject is a human. This is proof of concept functionality that is best developed at this time for English. What you are proposing however is something else; have Wikidata information included based on an article. There are several parts to this; when a subject is part of a specific category or lists, it would follow that specific statements can be made based on this information. When an article has a specific template / infobox the information in the infobox implies specific statements. This is a bit of an issue; when Wikidata already knows about a subject and has that information it could serve the Wikipedia with that information. Who says that new information from a Wikipedia is better than existing information in Wikidata ? So yes, there is room for activity on available information in a hackathon. However, the notion that Wikipedia has the information first is a false premise; Wikidata has more than 50% more items than en,wp has articles. Thanks, GerardM On 9 March 2014 21:44, Andy Mabbett <andy(a)pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

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Andy Mabbett

2:36 p.m.

New subject: [Wikidata-l] Making Wikidata entries at the time of 'Article for Creation' publication

On 10 March 2014 04:10, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> wrote:

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You have it backwards, in my opinion at least.

I think that's a rather bold statement, even couched as an opinion.

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When someone is notable enough for a Wikipedia article, create a Wikidata item and include all the pertinent information for that person. You may even be surprised in finding that the person already exists.

Are you familar, as I am, with the AfC proces to which I referred? It's used mostly by novice users making their first articles. What makes you think such people will ever start with Wikidata, much less in its current form?

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There are many people from the USA or the UK who have an article in a Wikipedia but not in the English Wikipedia.

So? How does that help the people currently using AfC?

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When the known information has been entered, you will find in the Reasonator a text generated based on the available information when the subject is a human. This is proof of concept functionality that is best developed at this time for English.

I'm very familiar with Reasonator; indeed, I proposed a modest number of its features. What makes you think the AfC users will be?

...

What you are proposing however is something else; have Wikidata information included based on an article. There are several parts to this; when a subject is part of a specific category or lists, it would follow that specific statements can be made based on this information. When an article has a specific template / infobox the information in the infobox implies specific statements.

That is indeed my point.

...

This is a bit of an issue; when Wikidata already knows about a subject and has that information it could serve the Wikipedia with that information. Who says that new information from a Wikipedia is better than existing information in Wikidata ?

Who says that the information relating to AfC article candidates is in Wikidata?

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However, the notion that Wikipedia has the information first is a false premise;

Poppycock; I see examples all the time where articles are created in Wikipedia (via AfC or otherwise) with no equivalent in Wikidata.

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Wikidata has more than 50% more items than en,wp has articles.

That may be true; but it rarely has items on the articles proposed via AfC. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

Lydia Pintscher

8:41 a.m.

New subject: [Wikidata-l] Making Wikidata entries at the time of 'Article for Creation' publication

On Sun, Mar 9, 2014 at 9:44 PM, Andy Mabbett <andy(a)pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

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I agree with what Gerard wrote. We should be moving away from a world where information is entered on Wikipedia and then in addition on Wikidata. We need to move to a world where information is added in Wikidata and then used on Wikipedia. Otherwise the whole idea of Wikidata is kinda moot. It will not happen tomorrow and need more work but this is where we should be going and I'd rather we didn't take steps that drag this process out even longer. Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.

Andy Mabbett

2:40 p.m.

New subject: [Wikidata-l] Making Wikidata entries at the time of 'Article for Creation' publication

On 10 March 2014 07:41, Lydia Pintscher <lydia.pintscher(a)wikimedia.de> wrote:

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I agree with what Gerard wrote.

Then please see my response to him.

...

We should be moving away from a world where information is entered on Wikipedia and then in addition on Wikidata. We need to move to a world where information is added in Wikidata and then used on Wikipedia.

I'd love to know how you think that will happen, in a timely manner, for the kinds of people who use AfC,

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Otherwise the whole idea ofther t Wikidata is kinda moot. It will not happen tomorrow and need more work but this is where we should be going and I'd rather we didn't take steps that drag this process out even longer.

Meanwhile, articles are being created, daily, via AfC with no Wikidata equivalent, or where someone has to create the equivalent manually, cutting-and-pasting or retyping text, rather than having tools do the work for them. That's crazy. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

Lydia Pintscher

11 Mar 11 Mar

12:28 a.m.

New subject: [Wikidata-l] Making Wikidata entries at the time of 'Article for Creation' publication

On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 2:40 PM, Andy Mabbett <andy(a)pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

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On 10 March 2014 07:41, Lydia Pintscher <lydia.pintscher(a)wikimedia.de> wrote:

I agree with what Gerard wrote.

Then please see my response to him.

I'd love to know how you think that will happen, in a timely manner, for the kinds of people who use AfC,

Where do you see the biggest obstacles right now in the process? Maybe we can identify those and then see if we can find solutions for them? I'm not saying what you're seeing isn't a problem we need to fix. I just think we need to solve it in a better way. Let's find it.

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Sure. That is clearly not a great situation and we should see if we can improve it. What I'm saying is that we should not improve it by making people enter even more information in Wikipedia and then copy it over to Wikipedia while our long-term goal is exactly the opposite. Because this will only bite us down the road. Let's identify the specific issues and see if we can find other solutions for them. Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.

Joe Filceolaire

12:36 p.m.

New subject: [Wikidata-l] Making Wikidata entries at the time of 'Article for Creation' publication

I agree that it makes sense that one of the first things to do when creating a new wikipedia article should be to create an infobox which is automagically linked to the creation of a wikidata item. There are a number of considerations related to this. 1. Notability. The current rules for Wikidata means that it is not acceptable to create a wikidata item until after the Wikipedia article has been created. 2. Drafts. English Wikipedia has recently enabled a Draft name space for people to use to develop new articles. Articles in the Draft namespace are not indexed by Google and are not required to meet notability standards until they are transferred to the Main namespace. Should we change the rules on wikidata so Draft articles can be sitelinked and have wikidata items? 3. Visual Editor. The visual editor already has some template editing functionality but it does not link to a wikidata item. To get Wikipedia editors editing wikidata we need an infobox creation wizard which will mean wikipedia editors can edit wikidata from inside wikipedia and it feels like they are editing an info box. Personally I think the first step should be to enable the wikibase client on wikidata so we can start developing these internationalised and localised infoboxes on wikidata which can then be redeployed to other WMF wikis. Yours Joe On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 11:28 PM, Lydia Pintscher < lydia.pintscher(a)wikimedia.de> wrote:

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On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 2:40 PM, Andy Mabbett <andy(a)pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

On 10 March 2014 07:41, Lydia Pintscher <lydia.pintscher(a)wikimedia.de>

wrote:

I agree with what Gerard wrote.

Then please see my response to him.

I'd love to know how you think that will happen, in a timely manner, for the kinds of people who use AfC,

David Cuenca

1:20 p.m.

New subject: [Wikidata-l] Making Wikidata entries at the time of 'Article for Creation' publication

On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 12:36 PM, Joe Filceolaire <filceolaire(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:

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Most of the time superseded by "clearly identifiable conceptual or material entity" or "structural need", but nevertheless important.

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2. Drafts. English Wikipedia has recently enabled a Draft name space for people to use to develop new articles. Articles in the Draft namespace are not indexed by Google and are not required to meet notability standards until they are transferred to the Main namespace. Should we change the rules on wikidata so Draft articles can be sitelinked and have wikidata items?

No idea how useful drafts are... or how often they move forward or get deleted.

...

3. Visual Editor. The visual editor already has some template editing functionality but it does not link to a wikidata item. To get Wikipedia editors editing wikidata we need an infobox creation wizard which will mean wikipedia editors can edit wikidata from inside wikipedia and it feels like they are editing an info box. Personally I think the first step should be to enable the wikibase client on wikidata so we can start developing these internationalised and localised infoboxes on wikidata which can then be redeployed to other WMF wikis.

Totally agree. Even better would be to have a "Infobox Reasonator", meaning a standard infobox that can be used for everything (perfect for small wikis). But for all that first we need Lua for testing the templates on WD: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=47071 Which needs arbitrary access: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=47930 And perhaps linking Wikidata pages as sitelinks, so Wikipedias can find our custom-made infoboxes easily https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=55570 As for WP-templates there is the need to be able to specify to which WD property should a template field default. No idea if that has been tracked/discussed somewhere. Coming back to the topic of new articles, I think it is important to note that most articles are categorized, and categories can give a hint about the properties common to all articles belonging to the category. It should be possible to semi-automate the process of creating wikidata items with an initial set of statements depending on the item category. Infoboxes also give hints about base statements. Thanks Micru

Gerard Meijssen

12 Mar 12 Mar

1 p.m.

New subject: [Wikidata-l] Making Wikidata entries at the time of 'Article for Creation' publication

Hoi, In my opinion the notability rules for Wikidata need to change. I have created an RFC to reflect this [1]. Thanks, GerardM [1] https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Notability_%26_… On 11 March 2014 12:36, Joe Filceolaire <filceolaire(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 2:40 PM, Andy Mabbett <andy(a)pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

On 10 March 2014 07:41, Lydia Pintscher <lydia.pintscher(a)wikimedia.de>

wrote:

I agree with what Gerard wrote.

Then please see my response to him.

I'd love to know how you think that will happen, in a timely manner, for the kinds of people who use AfC,

_______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Andy Mabbett

2:52 p.m.

New subject: [Wikidata-l] Making Wikidata entries at the time of 'Article for Creation' publication

On 10 March 2014 23:28, Lydia Pintscher <lydia.pintscher(a)wikimedia.de> wrote:

...

I'd love to know how you think that will happen, in a timely manner, for the kinds of people who use AfC,

The long answer to your question is for you to spend some time looking through, reviewing, and where appropriate publishing, the articles (especially biographies) submitted at AfC (on en.WP, though de.WP and others presumably have an equivalent?). The short asnwer is that we're talking about people who are using Wikipedia for the first time, and struggling, often requiring several iterations, to understand templates, referencing and other things which you and I take for granted.

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[ITYM "copy it over to Wikidata"] I'm not sugegsting that we "make people enter even more information in Wikipedia"; I'm suggesting that wikidata would benefit from capturing the data that is /already/ being entered into Wikipedia, not least via AfC, by the people I describe above; and that I and others who review and publish those articles would benefit from tool to save us the manual task of having to retype (into Wikidata) what we're already asked to type once (into the AfC tool) as part of that process.

...

Let's identify the specific issues and see if we can find other solutions for them.

I'm pretty sure I already identified the specific issue here. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

Jane Darnell

3:12 p.m.

New subject: [Wikidata-l] Making Wikidata entries at the time of 'Article for Creation' publication

Hi Andy, You hit the nail on the head! I have been cataloguing the artists of the Netherlands since 2009 and have created tons of stubs on Wikipedia that now all need to become items on Wikidata. Most of them became items in the "Great Item-creation party" of the first few months after WD's birth, especially since a lot of them were already in the Hungarian Wikipedia that got converted first. It is a source of annoyance to me that I can't discover any way to automate the population of the English labels on Wikidata though, so I have been somewhat lazily filling these in as I bump into them. I have decided that the easiest way to "pin" a painter bio in the Wikiverse that does not exist yet on the English Wikipedia, is to simply go ahead and create the stub on the English Wikipedia. This makes your 15 minutes of legwork into a half-hour of legwork, but it makes it much easier down the line to mesh in with WD, especially because searching WD for names of people who died more than 100 years ago brings its own international spelling challenges. Though I totally agree with Lydia that in the ideal world you could create the item first on WD to use for stub-creation later, we are still a long way from that situation. I feel strongly that there could be a good case for an "article creation wizard" that runs off of WD, pre-populating things like info-boxes, categories, defaultsort, and lead sentence. my 2c, Jane 2014-03-12 14:52 GMT+01:00, Andy Mabbett <andy(a)pigsonthewing.org.uk>uk>:

...

On 10 March 2014 23:28, Lydia Pintscher <lydia.pintscher(a)wikimedia.de> wrote:

I'd love to know how you think that will happen, in a timely manner, for the kinds of people who use AfC,

Let's identify the specific issues and see if we can find other solutions for them.

I'm pretty sure I already identified the specific issue here. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

David Cuenca

4 p.m.

New subject: [Wikidata-l] Making Wikidata entries at the time of 'Article for Creation' publication

On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 2:52 PM, Andy Mabbett <andy(a)pigsonthewing.org.uk>wrote;wrote:

...

I'm not sugegsting that we "make people enter even more information in Wikipedia"; I'm suggesting that wikidata would benefit from capturing the data that is /already/ being entered into Wikipedia, not least via AfC, by the people I describe above; and that I and others who review and publish those articles would benefit from tool to save us the manual task of having to retype (into Wikidata) what we're already asked to type once (into the AfC tool) as part of that process.

We cannot get there yet, since we depend on many features still in development: 1.- Simple data editing from VisualEditor 2.- Easy way to map wikipedia template fields to wikidata properties 3.- Migration of main infobox templates to make use of Wikidata There are many needed features still not done, plus some more, which take a long time to discuss, implement, and test. Of course when all that is available then you should be able to have an infobox selection wizard (possibly based on this structure [1]), and then by editing the fields on VisualEditor the data would be automatically filled on Wikidata. As said, it sounds easy, but this has many prerequisites that are still not met. My only advice: patience :-) And if you want meanwhile you can help with the infobox mappings: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Infobox_mappings Cheers, Micru [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_infoboxes

Andy Mabbett

6:11 p.m.

New subject: [Wikidata-l] Making Wikidata entries at the time of 'Article for Creation' publication

On 12 March 2014 15:00, David Cuenca <dacuetu(a)gmail.com> wrote:

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What does this have to do with AfC? Indeed, nowhere in your post do you mention AfC, once. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

David Cuenca

9:38 p.m.

New subject: [Wikidata-l] Making Wikidata entries at the time of 'Article for Creation' publication

On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 6:11 PM, Andy Mabbett <andy(a)pigsonthewing.org.uk>wrote;wrote:

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What does this have to do with AfC? Indeed, nowhere in your post do you mention AfC, once.

Because there is no difference between creating an article through enwiki-AfC or creating an article on any of the other 270+ language editions of WP. The general requirements are a simple interface and a streamlined workflow. If later you want to re-package it as "AfC" or anything else it is up to you, it doesn't affect the real problematic. On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 7:09 PM, Dimitris Kontokostas <jimkont(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:

...

Actually there is a lot of work done in this regard. We map Wikipedia templates to the DBpedia ontology [1] and already started marking equivalent properties to Wikidata (see [2] [3])

Dimitris, I meant integrating the mapping info into the WP template data itself. Anyhow, thanks for the lead, maybe you could post it on the "Wikidata:Infobox_mappings" page too? It might simplify their work. Thanks, Micru

Andy Mabbett

10:12 p.m.

New subject: [Wikidata-l] Making Wikidata entries at the time of 'Article for Creation' publication

On 12 March 2014 20:38, David Cuenca <dacuetu(a)gmail.com> wrote:

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Indeed, nowhere in your post do you mention AfC, once.

Because there is no difference between creating an article through enwiki-AfC or creating an article on any of the other 270+ language editions of WP.

Yes, there is (unless you're referring to AfC on all those Wikiepdias.) How many biographies have you published using AfC on en.WP? -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

David Cuenca

11:05 p.m.

New subject: [Wikidata-l] Making Wikidata entries at the time of 'Article for Creation' publication

On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 10:12 PM, Andy Mabbett <andy(a)pigsonthewing.org.uk>wrote;wrote:

...

Yes, there is (unless you're referring to AfC on all those Wikiepdias.)

I read about the AfC process and the technical requirements are the same, just the packaging changes (input forms and step-by-step info request). Yes, you could place the data on article creation on the Wikidata item, but still it would be unconnected to the wp page. If later on you would edit the data either on wp or on wd, that wouldn't have any effect on each other unless you adapt the infobox template for that. And even if you moved the template to Lua to fetch the data from wd, then you wouldn't be able to edit that data easily from WP. Please, don't get me wrong, AfC is a good tool for new users, and it should become something global and connected with Wikidata, but the effort of doing it now wouldn't bring that many benefits, and it would probably have to change when the system gets more mature. Still, if you or somebody else thinks different and wants to do it, why not?

...

How many biographies have you published using AfC on en.WP?

En.wp is not my main wp but I'll give it a shot :) Thanks, Micru

Dimitris Kontokostas

7:09 p.m.

New subject: [Wikidata-l] Making Wikidata entries at the time of 'Article for Creation' publication

On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 5:00 PM, David Cuenca <dacuetu(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 2:52 PM, Andy Mabbett <andy(a)pigsonthewing.org.uk>wrote;wrote:

We cannot get there yet, since we depend on many features still in development: 1.- Simple data editing from VisualEditor 2.- Easy way to map wikipedia template fields to wikidata properties

Actually there is a lot of work done in this regard. We map Wikipedia templates to the DBpedia ontology [1] and already started marking equivalent properties to Wikidata (see [2] [3]) Best, Dimitris [1] http://mappings.dbpedia.org/index.php/Main_Page [2] http://mappings.dbpedia.org/index.php/OntologyProperty:Family [3] https://github.com/dbpedia/extraction-framework/wiki/GSOC2013_Progress_Hady…

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3.- Migration of main infobox templates to make use of Wikidata There are many needed features still not done, plus some more, which take a long time to discuss, implement, and test. Of course when all that is available then you should be able to have an infobox selection wizard (possibly based on this structure [1]), and then by editing the fields on VisualEditor the data would be automatically filled on Wikidata. As said, it sounds easy, but this has many prerequisites that are still not met. My only advice: patience :-) And if you want meanwhile you can help with the infobox mappings: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Infobox_mappings Cheers, Micru [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_infoboxes _______________________________________________ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

-- Kontokostas Dimitris

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participants (7)

Andy Mabbett
David Cuenca
Dimitris Kontokostas
Gerard Meijssen
Jane Darnell
Joe Filceolaire
Lydia Pintscher