Hi,
A short mail to report a bug in the organization of the wikidata workshop held today during the wikiconvention in Paris[1]. Weeks in advance I convinced a few people to attend so that we can work on our topic of interest: Software and Free Software in particular[2]. There is no better context than being surrounded by seasoned wikidata contributors to improve and contribute at the same time. The description was appealing:
"After a one hour training, we will create groups according to the desire of the participants: contribute, discover and install useful gadgets..."
When the audience was asked for their preferences, I raised my hand and happily declared "Contributing to the Software and FLOSS projects !". Much to my surprise this was quickly dismissed: "we're only going to learn about tools, we create groups to use and learn about tools, not to work on a specific project". My interest for the Software project is known to both Harmonia Amanda and Ash_Crow, to the extent that I discussed with them my intent to recruit people to participate in the workshop for that particular topic[3], well in advance. The focus of our interest was also made clear in the participant list[4].
Of course the rebuttal was not enough to discourage us from contributing to wikidata :-) We found another room and did useful work together, just without the pleasure of being part of the group.
When facing such a minor disappointment, I suppose there is not much cause for concern. But I thought it would be useful to report what appears to be a glitch in the organization so that it can be fixed. This is not a pleasant thing to write or read, but what would be life without a few mistakes ?
In conclusion I would like to thank everyone for a wonderful first experience, specially Harmonia Amanda and Ash_Crow who do a tremendous work with wikidata.
Cheers
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConvention_francophone/2016/Programme/At... [2] https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_Informatics/Software https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_Informatics/FLOSS [3] 15 july 2016 <dachary> Ash_Crow: pour https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConvention_francophone/2016/Programme/At... nous serons au moins trois avec pour centre d'intérêt https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_Informatics/FLOSS et https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_Informatics/Software . J'espère convaincre deux autres personnes mais c'est pas gagné ... l'attrait des vacances... [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConvention_francophone/2016/Programme/At...
Hi Loic!
That is of course unfortunate that it didn't work as planned. Maybe if we can get more people signed up for Wikiprojects it would make it easier to get more specialised sessions organised. Or even plan separate events. Especially for free software it might also make sense to have a workshop and booth at open source conferences. The data from Wikidata could be very useful for example to the freedesktop initiative, so there would be a lot of synergies.
-tobias
Am 21.08.2016 7:07 nachm. schrieb "Loic Dachary" loic@dachary.org:
Hi,
A short mail to report a bug in the organization of the wikidata workshop held today during the wikiconvention in Paris[1]. Weeks in advance I convinced a few people to attend so that we can work on our topic of interest: Software and Free Software in particular[2]. There is no better context than being surrounded by seasoned wikidata contributors to improve and contribute at the same time. The description was appealing:
"After a one hour training, we will create groups according to the desire of the participants: contribute, discover and install useful gadgets..."
When the audience was asked for their preferences, I raised my hand and happily declared "Contributing to the Software and FLOSS projects !". Much to my surprise this was quickly dismissed: "we're only going to learn about tools, we create groups to use and learn about tools, not to work on a specific project". My interest for the Software project is known to both Harmonia Amanda and Ash_Crow, to the extent that I discussed with them my intent to recruit people to participate in the workshop for that particular topic[3], well in advance. The focus of our interest was also made clear in the participant list[4].
Of course the rebuttal was not enough to discourage us from contributing to wikidata :-) We found another room and did useful work together, just without the pleasure of being part of the group.
When facing such a minor disappointment, I suppose there is not much cause for concern. But I thought it would be useful to report what appears to be a glitch in the organization so that it can be fixed. This is not a pleasant thing to write or read, but what would be life without a few mistakes ?
In conclusion I would like to thank everyone for a wonderful first experience, specially Harmonia Amanda and Ash_Crow who do a tremendous work with wikidata.
Cheers
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConvention_ francophone/2016/Programme/Atelier_de_formation_%C3%A0_Wikidata [2] https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_ Informatics/Software https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_ Informatics/FLOSS [3] 15 july 2016 <dachary> Ash_Crow: pour https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/WikiConvention_francophone/2016/Programme/ Atelier_de_formation_%C3%A0_Wikidata nous serons au moins trois avec pour centre d'intérêt https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_ Informatics/FLOSS et https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_ Informatics/Software . J'espère convaincre deux autres personnes mais c'est pas gagné ... l'attrait des vacances... [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConvention_ francophone/2016/Programme/Atelier_de_formation_%C3%A0_ Wikidata#Participants_int.C3.A9ress.C3.A9s_.28inscrivez- vous_ci-dessous_et_posez_d.C3.A8s_.C3.A0_pr.C3.A9sent_vos_ questions_.C3.A0_l.27organisateur_de_la_session.29 -- Loïc Dachary, Artisan Logiciel Libre
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
I have been hoping to do more events that are focused on creating, editing and using Wikidata queries SPARQL (https://query.wikidata.org/). Slowly but surely we are seeing edits to Wikidata at editathons here in New York City, where we do a lot of editathons, but it's really not happening on a consistent level of engagement.
I think to have a good Wikidata editathon, it would be necessary to make sure there were multiple training sessions and a very specific task list / scope of event. Probably the editathon -- and specifically conference settings -- are somewhat non-ideal to what needs to be more of a focused hackathon. At least this is my impression.
I would love to do an editathon with librarians to add and/or update Authority control elements to Wikipedia / Wikidata. That would be very rewarding, I think.
If there are suggestions to support and encourage events focused on Wikidata, I am very interested to hear ideas.
- Erika
*Erika Herzog* Wikipedia *User:BrillLyle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrillLyle*
On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 1:58 AM, Tobias Schönberg tobias47n9e@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Loic!
That is of course unfortunate that it didn't work as planned. Maybe if we can get more people signed up for Wikiprojects it would make it easier to get more specialised sessions organised. Or even plan separate events. Especially for free software it might also make sense to have a workshop and booth at open source conferences. The data from Wikidata could be very useful for example to the freedesktop initiative, so there would be a lot of synergies.
-tobias
Am 21.08.2016 7:07 nachm. schrieb "Loic Dachary" loic@dachary.org
When the audience was asked for their preferences, I raised my hand and happily declared "Contributing to the Software and FLOSS projects !". Much to my surprise this was quickly dismissed: "we're only going to learn about tools, we create groups to use and learn about tools, not to work on a specific project". My interest for the Software project is known to both Harmonia Amanda and Ash_Crow, to the extent that I discussed with them my intent to recruit people to participate in the workshop for that particular topic[3], well in advance. The focus of our interest was also made clear in the participant list[4].
[3] 15 july 2016 <dachary> Ash_Crow: pour https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik i/WikiConvention_francophone/2016/Programme/Atelier_de_ formation_%C3%A0_Wikidata nous serons au moins trois avec pour centre d'intérêt https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_Informati cs/FLOSS et https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_Informati cs/Software . J'espère convaincre deux autres personnes mais c'est pas gagné ... l'attrait des vacances... [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiConvention_francophone/ 2016/Programme/Atelier_de_formation_%C3%A0_Wikidata# Participants_int.C3.A9ress.C3.A9s_.28inscrivez-vous_ci- dessous_et_posez_d.C3.A8s_.C3.A0_pr.C3.A9sent_vos_questions_ .C3.A0_l.27organisateur_de_la_session.29
2016-08-21 19:06 GMT+02:00 Loic Dachary loic@dachary.org:
When the audience was asked for their preferences, I raised my hand and happily declared "Contributing to the Software and FLOSS projects !". Much to my surprise this was quickly dismissed: "we're only going to learn about tools, we create groups to use and learn about tools, not to work on a specific project". My interest for the Software project is known to both Harmonia Amanda and Ash_Crow, to the extent that I discussed with them my intent to recruit people to participate in the workshop for that particular topic[3], well in advance.
And I answered you weeks ago that I plan to organize a fully dedicated
workshop on this topic later this year, involving local free software organizations like Parinux or Framasoft.
Sylvain/Ash_.
Hi Sylvain,
On 26/08/2016 11:43, Sylvain Boissel wrote:
2016-08-21 19:06 GMT+02:00 Loic Dachary <loic@dachary.org mailto:loic@dachary.org>:
When the audience was asked for their preferences, I raised my hand and happily declared "Contributing to the Software and FLOSS projects !". Much to my surprise this was quickly dismissed: "we're only going to learn about tools, we create groups to use and learn about tools, not to work on a specific project". My interest for the Software project is known to both Harmonia Amanda and Ash_Crow, to the extent that I discussed with them my intent to recruit people to participate in the workshop for that particular topic[3], well in advance.And I answered you weeks ago that I plan to organize a fully dedicated workshop on this topic later this year, involving local free software organizations like Parinux or Framasoft.
I remember that, excellent initiative :-) I'm not sure how it explains what happened during the wikiconvention though.
I was connected to #wikidata-fr today and read a conversation on this topic, involving you and Harmonia Amanda (which I will not quote here because I assume this is not a good behavior to quote from channels that are not logged). The general tone was unfriendly and made me feel unwanted as a contributor. It also made me realize that my efforts to bring more French people / organizations to wikidata were mocked and unappreciated.
As a volunteer I value good relationships even more than technical contributions. For this reason I will distance myself from the wikidata French community. I hope to return in the future when a more welcoming context has been established.
Cheers
Hi Loic, I recently noticed that the history of software is severely underrepresented on Wikidata and there is very little interlinking going on at all, while many items are missing P31. I do think it would be useful to create a Wikidata:<Software project> page to list the various types of software (OS, languages, development environments) and model how to use properties to flesh out such items. I suspect there are several properties that need to be created, such as "Principal developer" or something like that.
I agree however that for a low-threshold Wikidata meetup, the most important thing is to share basic gadgets and knowledge, because there is so much still to be done on outreach in all languages. I noticed for example that Listeria was blocked on Portuguese Wikipedia due to objections in the labelling showing up in list headers. This shows how the basic interface is still such a mystery to so many communities, probably because the basic interface is still so incomplete in those languages. Jane
On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 7:27 AM, Loic Dachary loic@dachary.org wrote:
Hi Sylvain,
On 26/08/2016 11:43, Sylvain Boissel wrote:
2016-08-21 19:06 GMT+02:00 Loic Dachary <loic@dachary.org <mailto:
loic@dachary.org>>:
When the audience was asked for their preferences, I raised my handand happily declared "Contributing to the Software and FLOSS projects !". Much to my surprise this was quickly dismissed: "we're only going to learn about tools, we create groups to use and learn about tools, not to work on a specific project". My interest for the Software project is known to both Harmonia Amanda and Ash_Crow, to the extent that I discussed with them my intent to recruit people to participate in the workshop for that particular topic[3], well in advance.
And I answered you weeks ago that I plan to organize a fully dedicated
workshop on this topic later this year, involving local free software organizations like Parinux or Framasoft.
I remember that, excellent initiative :-) I'm not sure how it explains what happened during the wikiconvention though.
I was connected to #wikidata-fr today and read a conversation on this topic, involving you and Harmonia Amanda (which I will not quote here because I assume this is not a good behavior to quote from channels that are not logged). The general tone was unfriendly and made me feel unwanted as a contributor. It also made me realize that my efforts to bring more French people / organizations to wikidata were mocked and unappreciated.
As a volunteer I value good relationships even more than technical contributions. For this reason I will distance myself from the wikidata French community. I hope to return in the future when a more welcoming context has been established.
Cheers
-- Loïc Dachary, Artisan Logiciel Libre
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Hi Jane,
On 26/08/2016 14:01, Jane Darnell wrote:
Hi Loic, I recently noticed that the history of software is severely underrepresented on Wikidata and there is very little interlinking going on at all, while many items are missing P31. I do think it would be useful to create a Wikidata:<Software project> page to list the various types of software (OS, languages, development environments) and model how to use properties to flesh out such items. I suspect there are several properties that need to be created, such as "Principal developer" or something like that.
You're right ! That's what https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_Informatics/FLOSS and https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:WikiProject_Informatics/Software are about, but it's quite recent.
I agree however that for a low-threshold Wikidata meetup, the most important thing is to share basic gadgets and knowledge, because there is so much still to be done on outreach in all languages. I noticed for example that Listeria was blocked on Portuguese Wikipedia due to objections in the labelling showing up in list headers. This shows how the basic interface is still such a mystery to so many communities, probably because the basic interface is still so incomplete in those languages.
That makes perfect sense. My bug report was not about the scope of the workshop. It was more about the contradiction between the workshop description and what happened, the way communication was handled overall and the fact that it lead to a situation that is counterproductive and generally unpleasant for the people involved. It's easy to fix and I'm sure things will be better next time :-)
Cheers
Jane
On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 7:27 AM, Loic Dachary <loic@dachary.org mailto:loic@dachary.org> wrote:
Hi Sylvain, On 26/08/2016 11:43, Sylvain Boissel wrote: > > > 2016-08-21 19:06 GMT+02:00 Loic Dachary <loic@dachary.org <mailto:loic@dachary.org> <mailto:loic@dachary.org <mailto:loic@dachary.org>>>: > > When the audience was asked for their preferences, I raised my hand and happily declared "Contributing to the Software and FLOSS projects !". Much to my surprise this was quickly dismissed: "we're only going to learn about tools, we create groups to use and learn about tools, not to work on a specific project". My interest for the Software project is known to both Harmonia Amanda and Ash_Crow, to the extent that I discussed with them my intent to recruit people to participate in the workshop for that particular topic[3], well in advance. > > And I answered you weeks ago that I plan to organize a fully dedicated workshop on this topic later this year, involving local free software organizations like Parinux or Framasoft. I remember that, excellent initiative :-) I'm not sure how it explains what happened during the wikiconvention though. I was connected to #wikidata-fr today and read a conversation on this topic, involving you and Harmonia Amanda (which I will not quote here because I assume this is not a good behavior to quote from channels that are not logged). The general tone was unfriendly and made me feel unwanted as a contributor. It also made me realize that my efforts to bring more French people / organizations to wikidata were mocked and unappreciated. As a volunteer I value good relationships even more than technical contributions. For this reason I will distance myself from the wikidata French community. I hope to return in the future when a more welcoming context has been established. Cheers -- Loïc Dachary, Artisan Logiciel Libre _______________________________________________ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata>
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Great, and thanks for your work! I suggest not placing the project behind a link like "Informatics" but just make a basic project for "Software" though. Someone else can go create a project for "Computers" and the Informatics page can be updated accordingly. The easiest thing would be to start copying some of the stuff from the old English Wikiprojects directory. They may be largely unused, but those pages can still be reused to build basic how-to-model pages on Wikidata.
On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 8:25 AM, Loic Dachary loic@dachary.org wrote:
Hi Jane,
On 26/08/2016 14:01, Jane Darnell wrote:
Hi Loic, I recently noticed that the history of software is severely
underrepresented on Wikidata and there is very little interlinking going on at all, while many items are missing P31. I do think it would be useful to create a Wikidata:<Software project> page to list the various types of software (OS, languages, development environments) and model how to use properties to flesh out such items. I suspect there are several properties that need to be created, such as "Principal developer" or something like that.
You're right ! That's what https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/ Wikidata:WikiProject_Informatics/FLOSS and https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/ Wikidata:WikiProject_Informatics/Software are about, but it's quite recent.
I agree however that for a low-threshold Wikidata meetup, the most
important thing is to share basic gadgets and knowledge, because there is so much still to be done on outreach in all languages. I noticed for example that Listeria was blocked on Portuguese Wikipedia due to objections in the labelling showing up in list headers. This shows how the basic interface is still such a mystery to so many communities, probably because the basic interface is still so incomplete in those languages.
That makes perfect sense. My bug report was not about the scope of the workshop. It was more about the contradiction between the workshop description and what happened, the way communication was handled overall and the fact that it lead to a situation that is counterproductive and generally unpleasant for the people involved. It's easy to fix and I'm sure things will be better next time :-)
Cheers
Jane
On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 7:27 AM, Loic Dachary <loic@dachary.org <mailto:
loic@dachary.org>> wrote:
Hi Sylvain, On 26/08/2016 11:43, Sylvain Boissel wrote: > > > 2016-08-21 19:06 GMT+02:00 Loic Dachary <loic@dachary.org <mailto:loic@dachary.org> <mailto:loic@dachary.org mailto:loic@dachary.org>>:
> > When the audience was asked for their preferences, I raised myhand and happily declared "Contributing to the Software and FLOSS projects !". Much to my surprise this was quickly dismissed: "we're only going to learn about tools, we create groups to use and learn about tools, not to work on a specific project". My interest for the Software project is known to both Harmonia Amanda and Ash_Crow, to the extent that I discussed with them my intent to recruit people to participate in the workshop for that particular topic[3], well in advance.
> > And I answered you weeks ago that I plan to organize a fullydedicated workshop on this topic later this year, involving local free software organizations like Parinux or Framasoft.
I remember that, excellent initiative :-) I'm not sure how itexplains what happened during the wikiconvention though.
I was connected to #wikidata-fr today and read a conversation onthis topic, involving you and Harmonia Amanda (which I will not quote here because I assume this is not a good behavior to quote from channels that are not logged). The general tone was unfriendly and made me feel unwanted as a contributor. It also made me realize that my efforts to bring more French people / organizations to wikidata were mocked and unappreciated.
As a volunteer I value good relationships even more than technicalcontributions. For this reason I will distance myself from the wikidata French community. I hope to return in the future when a more welcoming context has been established.
Cheers -- Loïc Dachary, Artisan Logiciel Libre _______________________________________________ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata%3E
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
-- Loïc Dachary, Artisan Logiciel Libre
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
The informatics Wikiproject was started to combine software and hardware in one project. That was mainly done because of the low number of participants and to avoid dispersing the discussions on too many pages. I am very happy that Loic is putting so much work into software and I think that Wikiproject Software could just move up in the namespace (as opposed to being a subpage of Informatics).
I hope we can have more discussions on the WikiProject pages in general, because they are a vital part of how the community works and interacts.
-Tobias
2016-08-26 14:58 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com:
Great, and thanks for your work! I suggest not placing the project behind a link like "Informatics" but just make a basic project for "Software" though. Someone else can go create a project for "Computers" and the Informatics page can be updated accordingly. The easiest thing would be to start copying some of the stuff from the old English Wikiprojects directory. They may be largely unused, but those pages can still be reused to build basic how-to-model pages on Wikidata.
On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 8:25 AM, Loic Dachary loic@dachary.org wrote:
Hi Jane,
On 26/08/2016 14:01, Jane Darnell wrote:
Hi Loic, I recently noticed that the history of software is severely
underrepresented on Wikidata and there is very little interlinking going on at all, while many items are missing P31. I do think it would be useful to create a Wikidata:<Software project> page to list the various types of software (OS, languages, development environments) and model how to use properties to flesh out such items. I suspect there are several properties that need to be created, such as "Principal developer" or something like that.
You're right ! That's what https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/ Wikidata:WikiProject_Informatics/FLOSS and https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/ Wikidata:WikiProject_Informatics/Software are about, but it's quite recent.
I agree however that for a low-threshold Wikidata meetup, the most
important thing is to share basic gadgets and knowledge, because there is so much still to be done on outreach in all languages. I noticed for example that Listeria was blocked on Portuguese Wikipedia due to objections in the labelling showing up in list headers. This shows how the basic interface is still such a mystery to so many communities, probably because the basic interface is still so incomplete in those languages.
That makes perfect sense. My bug report was not about the scope of the workshop. It was more about the contradiction between the workshop description and what happened, the way communication was handled overall and the fact that it lead to a situation that is counterproductive and generally unpleasant for the people involved. It's easy to fix and I'm sure things will be better next time :-)
Cheers
Jane
On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 7:27 AM, Loic Dachary <loic@dachary.org
mailto:loic@dachary.org> wrote:
Hi Sylvain, On 26/08/2016 11:43, Sylvain Boissel wrote: > > > 2016-08-21 19:06 GMT+02:00 Loic Dachary <loic@dachary.orgmailto:loic@dachary.org <mailto:loic@dachary.org mailto: loic@dachary.org>>:
> > When the audience was asked for their preferences, I raisedmy hand and happily declared "Contributing to the Software and FLOSS projects !". Much to my surprise this was quickly dismissed: "we're only going to learn about tools, we create groups to use and learn about tools, not to work on a specific project". My interest for the Software project is known to both Harmonia Amanda and Ash_Crow, to the extent that I discussed with them my intent to recruit people to participate in the workshop for that particular topic[3], well in advance.
> > And I answered you weeks ago that I plan to organize a fullydedicated workshop on this topic later this year, involving local free software organizations like Parinux or Framasoft.
I remember that, excellent initiative :-) I'm not sure how itexplains what happened during the wikiconvention though.
I was connected to #wikidata-fr today and read a conversation onthis topic, involving you and Harmonia Amanda (which I will not quote here because I assume this is not a good behavior to quote from channels that are not logged). The general tone was unfriendly and made me feel unwanted as a contributor. It also made me realize that my efforts to bring more French people / organizations to wikidata were mocked and unappreciated.
As a volunteer I value good relationships even more than technicalcontributions. For this reason I will distance myself from the wikidata French community. I hope to return in the future when a more welcoming context has been established.
Cheers -- Loïc Dachary, Artisan Logiciel Libre _______________________________________________ Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata%3E
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
-- Loïc Dachary, Artisan Logiciel Libre
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata