Hi. I understand your argument but I think there is an underlying incorrect assumption : template editors are actually ... Templates developers. Not regular editors. It's only a fraction of editors who actually touched a template in their life. (Maybe there is numbers somewhere)
With that in mind, the question become: will this change be any useful for those who already edited templates (my guess is barely) and for those who did never edited a template the same question can be asked. What stopped them until now, will Wikidata change anything to this, and lastly ... Will this feature have any influence at all ? I'm really dubious it's worth the trouble pictured like that. But I could be wrong. It would take more than a blogpost to convince me though ;)
Le 11 juil. 2015 09:29, "Gerard Meijssen" <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> a écrit :Hoi,I blogged about it. My argument is that Wikipedia should not be fenced in by assumptions from Wikidata.Thanks,GerardMOn 10 July 2015 at 17:35, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:Hoi,I have been thinking about this. I think the current approach is wrong. I think it is the properties where Wikipedians rightfully want to be able to use a text as a label that fits their need. Restricting this is probably wrong.It is in the Q values that we do NOT want editors to make a change, obviously. I intent to write more about this.Thanks,GerardMOn 9 July 2015 at 12:15, Daniel Kinzler <daniel.kinzler@wikimedia.de> wrote:Before I reply to what you wrote Gerard, let me summarize the question we
actually need to answer to go forward:
* currently, property values can be accessed from wikitext using the property's
(unique) label. Do we want to keep this? (the alternative is access via P-ids only)
* if yes, should it be possible to change a property's label at all?
* if yes, should references to the old label break, or should they continue to work?
* if they should continue to work, should this be achieved by making the old
label an alias?
* if no, how should it be achieved, exactly?
Am 09.07.2015 um 11:54 schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
> Hoi,
> The parser would understand it because it stored information. The property is
> still the same property, the label it uses is now seen as a local overrride.
That would be a completely new system, and quite complicated. It would also
introduce a host of new issues (such local overrides may conflict with new
names, or other local overrides, for instance. Language fallback makes this even
more fun. Not to mention that we currently don't have a good place to store this
kind of information).
The current proposal is to store those overrides in wikidata, as aliases.
> Daniel, there are many ways to solve this. The problem you face is based on a
> misconception. Language are not meant for rigidity.
Indeed. But names can be chosen to be unique. We do that all the time when
naming pages. And when naming properties. Property names (labels) were always
meant to be unique, this is nothing new. (For a while, there was a bug that
allowed duplicate labels under *some* circumstances, sorry for that).
> Expectting that you can has
> already been shown to be problematic. Consequently persisting on labels to be
> always unique is a problem of your own choosing. A problem that will not go away
> and is easiest solved now.
If we drop the requirement that properties should be accessible from wikitext
via their name, then yes, that would be easy. If people can live with using
P-Ids directly, that's fine with me.
> It is abundantly clear that you WILL use the requirement of Wikidata as an
> excuse when a language has no alternative.
Excuse for what? From a programming perspective, making people use IDs is by far
the simplest solution. It's easy enough for remove support for label based
access to properties, if that support is not needed.
Allowing access from wikitext using non-unique names, THAT is not something I
would want to support. I can't imagine how that would work at all.
--
Daniel Kinzler
Senior Software Developer
Wikimedia Deutschland
Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
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