Denny didn't even use the word "deprecated". 
Reification for statement-level provenance works, but you won't be able to sell it as an elegant solution to the problem.
So "could" - yes , "should" - ?? - probably not

If Wikidata is using statement-level provenance,  there might be better ways to serialize it in RDF than reification in the future
e.g. NQuads: http://sw.deri.org/2008/07/n-quads/
or JSON ;)

For internal use I would discourage reification.
If using a relational scheme, a statement id, which can be joined with another SQL table for provenance is the best way to do it imho.

Before you are driving us all mad with explaining why reifiction is bad, I would really like you to justify why WikiData should consider reification.
I really do not know many use case (if any) where reification is the right choice of modelling. Before going into the discussion any further [1], I think you should name an example where reification is really better than other options.

All the best,
Sebastian

[1]http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-699/Paper5.pdf


On 06/22/2012 06:20 PM, Martynas Jusevičius wrote:

Denny, the statement-level of granularity you're describing is achieved by
RDF reification. You describe it however as a "deprecated mechanism" of
provenance, without backing it up.

Why do you think there must be a better mechanism? Maybe you should take
another look at reification, or lower your provenance requirements, at
least initially?

Martynas
graphity.org
On Jun 22, 2012 5:20 PM, "Denny Vrandečić" <denny.vrandecic@wikimedia.de>
wrote:

Here's the use case:

Every statement in Wikidata will have a URI. Every statement can have
one more references.
In many cases, the reference might be text on a website.

Whereas it is always possible (and probably what we will do first) as
well as correct to state:

Statement1 accordingTo SlashDot .

it would be preferable to be a bit more specific on that, and most
preferably it would be to go all the way down to the sentence saying

Statement1 accordingTo X .

with X being a URI denoting the sentence that I mean in a specific
Slashdot-Article.

I would prefer a standard or widely adopted way to how to do that, and
NIF-URIs seem to be a viable solution for that. We will come back to
this once we start modeling references in more detail.

The reference could be pointing to a book, to a video, to a
mesopotamic stone table, etc. (OK, I admit that the different media
types will be differently prioritized).

I hope this helps,
Cheers,
Denny

2012/6/21 Sebastian Hellmann <hellmann@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>:

Hello Denny,
I was traveling for the past few weeks and can finally answer your email.
See my comments inline.

On 05/29/2012 05:25 PM, Denny VrandeÄ ić wrote:

Hello Sebastian,


Just a few questions - as you note, it is easier if we all use the same
standards, and so I want to ask about the relation to other related
standards:
* I understand that you dismiss IETF RFC 5147 because it is not stable
enough, right?

The offset scheme of NIF is built on this RFC.
So the following would hold:
@prefix ld: <http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/LinkedData.html#> .
@prefix owl: <http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#> .
ld:offset_717_729  owl:sameAs ld:char=717,12 .


We might change the syntax and reuse the RFC syntax, but it has several
issues:
1.  The optional part is not easy to handle, because you would need to

add

owl:sameAs statements:

ld:char=717,12;length=12,UTF-8 owl:sameAs ld:char=717,12;length=12 .
ld:char=717,12;length=12,UTF-8 owl:sameAs ld:char=717,12 .
ld:char=717,12;UTF-8 owl:sameAs ld:char=717,12;length=9876 .

So theoretically ok, but annoying to implement and check.

2. When implementing web services, NIF allows the client to choose the
prefix:

http://nlp2rdf.lod2.eu/demo/NIFStemmer?input-type=text&nif=true&prefix=http%3A%2F%2Fthis.is%2Fa%2Fslash%2Fprefix%2F&urirecipe=offset&input=President+Obama+is+president
.

returning URIs like <http://this.is/a/slash/prefix/offset_10_15>
So RFC 5147 would look like:
<http://this.is/a/slash/prefix/char=717,12>
<http://this.is/a/slash/prefix/char=717,12;UTF-8>
or
<http://this.is/a/slash/prefix?char=717,12>
<http://this.is/a/slash/prefix?char=717,12;UTF-8>

3. Character like = , prevent the use of prefixes:
echo "@prefix ld: <http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/LinkedData.html#>
.
@prefix owl: <http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#> .
ld:offset_717_729  owl:sameAs ld:char=717,12 .
" > test.ttl ; rapper -i turtle  test.ttl

4. implementation is a little bit more difficult, given that :
$arr = split("_", "offset_717_729") ;
switch ($arr[0]){
    case 'offset' :
        $begin = $arr[1];
        $end = $arr[2];
        break;
    case 'hash' :
        $clength = $arr[1];
        $slength = $arr[2];
        $hash = $arr[3];
        $rest = /*merge remaining with '_' */
        break;
}

5. RFC assumes a certain mime type, i.e. plain text. NIF does have a

broader

assumption.

* what is the relation to the W3C media fragment URIs? Did not find a
pointer there.

They are designed for media such as images, video, not strings.
Potentially, the same principle can be applied, but it is not yet
engineered/researched.

* any plans of standardizing your approach?

We will do NIF 2.0  as a community standard and finish it in a couple of
months. It will be published under open licences, so anybody W3C or ISO
might pick it up, easily. Other than that there are plans by several EU
projects (see e.g. here

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Jun/0101.html
)

and a US project to use it and there are several third party
implementations, already.  We would rather have it adopted first on a

large

scale and then standardized, properly, i.e. W3C. This worked quite well

for

the FOAF project or for RDB2RDF Mappers.
Chances for fast standardization are not so unlikely, I would assume.

We would strongly prefer to just use a standard instead of advocating
contenders for one -- if one exists.

You might want to look at:
http://www.w3.org/community/openannotation/wiki/TextCommentOnWebPage
and the same highlighting here:

http://pcai042.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/~swp12-9/vorprojekt/index.php?annotation_request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FDesignIssues%2FLinkedData.html%23hash_10_12_60f02d3b96c55e137e13494cf9a02d06_Semantic%2520Web

NIF equivalent (4 triples instad of 14 and only one generated uuid):
ld:hash_10_12_60f02d3b96c55e137e13494cf9a02d06_Semantic%20Web a

str:String ;

    oa:hasBody [
        oa:annotator <mailto:Bob> ;
        cnt:chars "Hey Tim, good idea that Semantic Web!" .
    ]

So you might not think in a "contender" way. Approaches are

complementary.

NIF is simpler and the URIs have some features that might be wanted
(stability, uniqueness, easy to implement).
This is why I was asking for your *use case* .

Note that: there are still some problems, when annotating DOM with URIs,
e.g. xPointer is abandoned and was never finished. Xpath has its limits

and

is also expensive (i.e. SAX not possible).
I think there is no proper solution as of now.
All the best,
Sebastian


Cheers,
Denny




2012/5/18 Sebastian Hellmann <hellmann@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>

Hello again,
maybe the question, I asked was lost, as the text was TL;DR

I heard that, it is planned to track provenance of facts. e.g. Berlin has
3,337,000 citizens found here:
http://www.worldatlas.com/**citypops.htm<

http://www.worldatlas.com/citypops.htm>

Do you have a place where the use case and the requirements are

documented

for this? Or is it out of scope?
Will it be course grained, i.e. website level ? Or fine grained, i.e.

text

paragraph level? See e.g. how Berlin is highlighted here:
http://pcai042.informatik.uni-**leipzig.de/~swp12-9/**
vorprojekt/index.php?**annotation_request=http%3A%2F%**
2Fwww.worldatlas.com%**2Fcitypops.htm%23hash_4_30_**

7449e732716c8e68842289bf2e6667**d5_Berlin%2C%2520Germany%2520-**%25203%2C<
http://pcai042.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/~swp12-9/vorprojekt/index.php?annotation_request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.worldatlas.com%2Fcitypops.htm%23hash_4_30_7449e732716c8e68842289bf2e6667d5_Berlin%2C%2520Germany%2520-%25203%2C

in this very early prototype.

Could you give me a link were I can read more about any Wikidata plans
towards this direction?
Sebastian



On 05/16/2012 09:10 AM, Sebastian Hellmann wrote:

Dear all,
(Note: I could not find the document, where your requirements regarding
the tracking of facts on the web are written, so I am giving a general
introduction to NIF. Please send me a link to the document that specifies
your need for tracing facts on the web, thanks)

I would like to point your attention to the URIs used in the NLP
Interchange Format (NIF).
NIF-URIs are quite easy to use, understand and implement. NIF has a
one-triple-per-annotation paradigm.  The latest documentation can be

found

here:
http://svn.aksw.org/papers/**2012/WWW_NIF/public/string_**ontology.pdf<

http://svn.aksw.org/papers/2012/WWW_NIF/public/string_ontology.pdf>

The basic idea is to use URIs with hash fragment ids to annotate or mark
pages on the web:
An example is the first occurrence of "Semantic Web" on
http://www.w3.org/**DesignIssues/LinkedData.html<

http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/LinkedData.html>

as highlighted here:
http://pcai042.informatik.uni-**leipzig.de/~swp12-9/**
vorprojekt/index.php?**annotation_request=http%3A%2F%**
2Fwww.w3.org%2FDesignIssues%**2FLinkedData.html%23hash_10_**12_**
60f02d3b96c55e137e13494cf9a02d**06_Semantic%2520Web<

http://pcai042.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/~swp12-9/vorprojekt/index.php?annotation_request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FDesignIssues%2FLinkedData.html%23hash_10_12_60f02d3b96c55e137e13494cf9a02d06_Semantic%2520Web

Here is a NIF example for linking a part of the document to the DBpedia
entry of the Semantic Web:
<http://www.w3.org/**DesignIssues/LinkedData.html#**offset_717_729<

http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/LinkedData.html#offset_717_729>

     a str:StringInContext ;
     sso:oen
<http://dbpedia.org/resource/**Semantic_Web<

http://dbpedia.org/resource/Semantic_Web>>

.


We are currently preparing a new draft for the spec 2.0. The old one can
be found here:
http://nlp2rdf.org/nif-1-0/

There are several EU projects that intend to use NIF. Furthermore, it is
easier for everybody, if we standardize a Web annotation format together.
Please give feedback of your use cases.
All the best,
Sebastian


--
Dipl. Inf. Sebastian Hellmann
Department of Computer Science, University of Leipzig
Projects: http://nlp2rdf.org , http://dbpedia.org
Homepage:
http://bis.informatik.uni-**leipzig.de/SebastianHellmann<

http://bis.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/SebastianHellmann>

Research Group: http://aksw.org


______________________________**_________________
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l<

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l>

_______________________________________________
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l



--
Dipl. Inf. Sebastian Hellmann
Department of Computer Science, University of Leipzig
Projects: http://nlp2rdf.org , http://dbpedia.org
Homepage: http://bis.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/SebastianHellmann
Research Group: http://aksw.org

--
Project director Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 72 | 10963 Berlin
Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das
Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.

_______________________________________________
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

_______________________________________________
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

-- 
Dipl. Inf. Sebastian Hellmann
Department of Computer Science, University of Leipzig
Projects: http://nlp2rdf.org , http://dbpedia.org
Homepage: http://bis.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/SebastianHellmann
Research Group: http://aksw.org