Joe,

That's actually not what I said. What I said was that we should explode all bundled concepts on Wikipedia into items on Wikidata. I did not say that we should do anything at all on Wikipedia. I am perfectly capable of keeping to the point on a Wikidata mailing list, and I believe that the "explosion of data" as I envision it on Wikidata would be helped by using Wiktionary.

Jane

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 4:13 PM, Joe Filceolaire <filceolaire@gmail.com> wrote:

Jane

I disagree.

Sitelinks to wikipedia redirects are useful because they help one wikipedia get useful links to other wikipedias even where the structure of the wikipedias is different, without having to force the various wikipedias to follow the same structure.

Your comment that wikipedias should change their policies and have one concept per article may be correct but it is a comment on wikipedia policy and should be addressed to the wikipedias. This list is for wikidata.

Note that we also have wikidata redirects. These should be created whenever we merge two wikidata items so that external links to the 'merged' item will automagically link to the combined item so that wikidata urls are stable and persistent.

Joe

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Jane Darnell <jane023@gmail.com> wrote:

Redirects are indeed cheap on Wikipedia, and I have created tons of them on the English Wikipedia. I am a big fan of redirects, but only on Wikipedia. Redirects are not useful for Wikidatans or for Wikipedians who become Wikidatans. Period.

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 2:57 PM, James Heald <j.heald@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:

Redirects are cheap.

On en-wiki the creation of new redirects is positively encouraged.

There is also a category on en-wiki, "Redirects with possibilities" for redirects that have the potential to be built into stand-alone articles.

I would have thought the (possibly automated) creation of large numbers of redirects similarly on other language wikis would be something that might be rather welcome.

Remember also that it's not changing the item structure on Wikidata, just what it can point to on the client wikis.

  -- James.

On 16/10/2014 13:44, P. Blissenbach wrote:

While I agree with the idea of linking between languages
including links to related topics, I am a bit hesitant to use
Wikidata for it now and in the suggested fashion. Rather let us
try to find a more generalized approach which not only serves
Wikipedias but all parties interested in finding related topics.
Then a search in WP can, in addition to its current hits, show
a list of "related topics" which are determined semantically
rather then by spelling.

Also I doubt that WP communties will tolerate the abundance of
redirects that are likely going to be necessary if you really make
all the ones that are possibly useful.

Purodha


"James Heald" <j.heald@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

We have the relevant information on :en in "hatmaking".

Why create a stub?  Why require the duplication?

Surely it is for client wikis to decide how they want to treat topics,
either in a big omnibus article, or in a lot of little articles -- that
is a decision for them.

But we should be helping readers moving from one language to another to
find the nearest equivalent in that language -- no matter whether in
that language it is a small part of a large article, or a separate
article in its own right.

    -- James.




On 16/10/2014 09:29, Jane Darnell wrote:

James,
I totally agree with Gerard and I totally disagree with you. The fact that
the English Wikipedia does not have an article on "hatmaker" is not
something that Wikidata should support, and the energy you are wasting with
your talk about redirects could better be spent on making a stub for
"hatmaker" on the English wikipedia.
Jane

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:34 AM, James Heald <j.heald@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:

I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what I am
saying.

To be clearer:

* Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the *sitelink* not
the item.
* It is no more "Wikipedia centric" than noting that a link goes to a
featured article in some language, or any other badge.

I'm not proposing items be introduced for "new things that do not exist"


Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently.

* "Hatmaking" is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article on
it in English Wikipedia:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375

* "Hatmaker" is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
on it on lots of Wikipedias.  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649

The two concepts are not the same.  One is a skill, the other is an
occupation.  They have a P425 / P na  relationship.

It therefore would not make any sense to add "Hatmaking" as a label to the
"Hatmaker" item.


At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for "Hatmaker".

What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmaker&redirect=no
with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page.


At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined for
"Hatmaking"

What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis, linking
to their articles on "Hatmaker", and then add sitelinks to the "Hatmaking"
item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages.



To give another example:

On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell,
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell
which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the engraver.
(cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for tests)

On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell.  Instead there
is a redirect, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Daniel_Havell&
redirect=no, which points to a section of an article on the Havell family:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havell_family#Daniel_Havell

Wikidata should have an item on Daniel Havell, which points to this
redirect.

That way, when the Creator template on Commons wants a link target on
:enwiki, the Wikidata item can supply it.


As I said, Gerard, I think you misunderstood what I was talking about.

I hope it is clearer and makes more sense to you now.


All best,

     James.




On 16/10/2014 06:15, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

Hoi,
I seriously fail to see how an example how Wikidata can be abused is a
good
thing. Redirects are imho seriously stupid. They are utterly Wikipedia
centric and they introduce new things that do not exist.


      - a redirect page to three pages is also called an disambiguation
page..
      We do support them. They are not redirects.
      - when a redirect page refers to an article by another name, it only
      takes a label to add the needed link to the subject

Seriously WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS?
Thanks,
         GerardM

On 14 October 2014 23:22, James Heald <j.heald@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:

   Creating sitelinks to redirects:

As I understand it, the classic workaround for this is to
*  go to client wiki,
*  edit the page temporarily so that it is not a redirect
*  add a sitelink
*  edit the page again to turn it back into a redirect.

Thus, at least as I understand it, there is no overwhelming technical
barrier to creating a sitelink to a redirect.


Looking back through the archives of Project Chat, it seems to be a
perennial thing that we ought to permit sitelinks to redirects, eg most
recently at

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Should_
all_occupations_be_separate_items_from_their_skills.3F

which led to Kaldari filing Bugzilla: 71859


But I'm not quite sure exactly what he wants solved, if sitelinks to
redirects are /already/ possible.  (Albeit requiring the slightly
roundabout process above).


Perhaps what is needed is just a concerted RfC, to confirm once and for
all that it is indeed the community view that such sitelinks are useful,
and should be created.


But there are a couple of things it would be nice to have, to confirm the
practice:
*  A badge (eg the letter R on a red disc) to indicate that the sitelink
to language xx is linking to a redirect, not a primary article.
*  On an item, a new property "redirected to", taking another item as its
object, and the identity of the wiki as a qualifier.


After that, we should go out creating this redirects on client wikis en
masse, and site-linking them.

This would solve a huge number of issues we currently have, where wiki A
has lots of little articles, whereas wiki B has the same content all in
sections of one article; or where wiki A and wiki B have chosen different
primary items for their treatment of a field.  (For example: the
profession
'hatmaker' or the activity 'hatmaking').


Allowing and encouraging sitelinks to redirect is the key to keeping a
clean item structure on Wikidata, while still connecting readers to the
most relevant pages in their preferred alternative languages.

     -- James.



On 14/10/2014 21:00, Jane Darnell wrote:

   nope

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Smolenski Nikola <smolensk@eunet.rs>
wrote:

    Citiranje Jane Darnell <jane023@gmail.com>:

   2) There is no way of making an interwikilink for a redirect, and the

German Wikipedia's "afrikanische Pflaume" is currently a redirect to
"Prunus"

You should still be able to make an interwiki link for a redirect the
old
way,
are you not?

_______________________________________________
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

_______________________________________________
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

_______________________________________________
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

_______________________________________________
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

_______________________________________________
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

_______________________________________________
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l