You can make an *item* on Wikidata, no problem.

But if you try to make a corresponding *article* on en-wiki, people will fold it into a list.

So it would be good for the *item* on Wikidata to point to the *redirect* that is permitted on en-wiki.

  -- James.

On 16/10/2014 12:54, Jane Darnell wrote:

I don't understand why you can't make an item for each character or each
person in a band. As long as you have a valid reference (IMDb? Book? out of
my league here) you can make an item for anything

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Jan Dudík <jan.dudik@gmail.com> wrote:

There is one big field, where redirects make sense: lists (of
characters) or members of bands

*Rob Bourdon (Q19205) have article in 38 languages. There is also part
of article de:Linkin_Park, which is about him and [[de:Rob Bourdon]]
is redirect.
*Character X from tv series Y is not notable enough to have separate
article, but it should have own item on wikidata. And there is article
about him in some small wiki. When you search , you found that there
is one article, but fifteen redirects to section (List of Y
characters#X)
*Fred Weasley (Q13359612) have one sitelink (to redirect), but
informations are in en, cs, fr, es, it, pt, pl, da and others too. But
when I want to find relevant articles, I must try each language
separate. With alowed redirects, I find it.

JAnD

2014-10-16 11:06 GMT+02:00 Jane Darnell <jane023@gmail.com>:

With a view to supporting mobile, why bundle concepts needlessly into

large

articles? Why not split them out and use the typical Wikipedia blue link
methodology to link them together? Some of the English Wikipedia articles
are very unwieldy on mobile and you need to scroll through lots of stuff

to

get the information you are looking for. In the case you are describing
however, I find the article rather short and I can't even see any

reference

to  the occupation of hatmaker at all unless you are referring to a list

of

notable hatters and milliners (which also seems rather short).

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 10:40 AM, James Heald <j.heald@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:

We have the relevant information on :en in "hatmaking".

Why create a stub?  Why require the duplication?

Surely it is for client wikis to decide how they want to treat topics,
either in a big omnibus article, or in a lot of little articles -- that

is a

decision for them.

But we should be helping readers moving from one language to another to
find the nearest equivalent in that language -- no matter whether in

that

language it is a small part of a large article, or a separate article

in its

own right.

   -- James.





On 16/10/2014 09:29, Jane Darnell wrote:

James,
I totally agree with Gerard and I totally disagree with you. The fact
that
the English Wikipedia does not have an article on "hatmaker" is not
something that Wikidata should support, and the energy you are wasting
with
your talk about redirects could better be spent on making a stub for
"hatmaker" on the English wikipedia.
Jane

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 9:34 AM, James Heald <j.heald@ucl.ac.uk>

wrote:

I am sorry, Gerard, you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood what

I

am
saying.

To be clearer:

* Noting that a link goes to a redirect is a feature of the *sitelink*
not
the item.
* It is no more "Wikipedia centric" than noting that a link goes to a
featured article in some language, or any other badge.

I'm not proposing items be introduced for "new things that do not

exist"

Let's take an example, from Project Chat recently.

* "Hatmaking" is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
on
it in English Wikipedia:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatmaking
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q663375

* "Hatmaker" is a real-world concept that exists.  We have an article
on it on lots of Wikipedias.  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18199649

The two concepts are not the same.  One is a skill, the other is an
occupation.  They have a P425 / P na  relationship.

It therefore would not make any sense to add "Hatmaking" as a label to
the
"Hatmaker" item.


At the moment, there is no sitelink to :en: defined for "Hatmaker".

What would make sense would be to sitelink to the redirect page
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hatmaker&redirect=no
with a badge, noting that this was a sitelink to a redirect page.


At the moment, there is no sitelink to wikis other than :en: defined

for

"Hatmaking"

What would make sense would be to create redirects on these wikis,
linking
to their articles on "Hatmaker", and then add sitelinks to the
"Hatmaking"
item, pointing to these redirects in each of the languages.



To give another example:

On Commons, we have a creator page for the engraver Daniel Havell,
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creator:Daniel_Havell
which ought to be made to draw from a Wikidata item for the engraver.
(cf https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Template:Creator/wrapper/test for
tests)

On en-wiki, there is no separate article for Daniel Havell.  Instead
there
is a redirect,

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Daniel_Havell&

redirect=no, which points to a section of an article on the Havell
family:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Havell_family#Daniel_Havell

Wikidata should have an item on Daniel Havell, which points to this
redirect.

That way, when the Creator template on Commons wants a link target on
:enwiki, the Wikidata item can supply it.


As I said, Gerard, I think you misunderstood what I was talking about.

I hope it is clearer and makes more sense to you now.


All best,

     James.




On 16/10/2014 06:15, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

Hoi,
I seriously fail to see how an example how Wikidata can be abused is

a

good
thing. Redirects are imho seriously stupid. They are utterly

Wikipedia

centric and they introduce new things that do not exist.


      - a redirect page to three pages is also called an

disambiguation

page..
      We do support them. They are not redirects.
      - when a redirect page refers to an article by another name, it
only
      takes a label to add the needed link to the subject

Seriously WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS?
Thanks,
         GerardM

On 14 October 2014 23:22, James Heald <j.heald@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:

   Creating sitelinks to redirects:

As I understand it, the classic workaround for this is to
*  go to client wiki,
*  edit the page temporarily so that it is not a redirect
*  add a sitelink
*  edit the page again to turn it back into a redirect.

Thus, at least as I understand it, there is no overwhelming

technical

barrier to creating a sitelink to a redirect.


Looking back through the archives of Project Chat, it seems to be a
perennial thing that we ought to permit sitelinks to redirects, eg
most
recently at

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat#Should_
all_occupations_be_separate_items_from_their_skills.3F

which led to Kaldari filing Bugzilla: 71859


But I'm not quite sure exactly what he wants solved, if sitelinks to
redirects are /already/ possible.  (Albeit requiring the slightly
roundabout process above).


Perhaps what is needed is just a concerted RfC, to confirm once and
for
all that it is indeed the community view that such sitelinks are
useful,
and should be created.


But there are a couple of things it would be nice to have, to

confirm

the
practice:
*  A badge (eg the letter R on a red disc) to indicate that the
sitelink
to language xx is linking to a redirect, not a primary article.
*  On an item, a new property "redirected to", taking another item

as

its
object, and the identity of the wiki as a qualifier.


After that, we should go out creating this redirects on client wikis
en
masse, and site-linking them.

This would solve a huge number of issues we currently have, where

wiki

A
has lots of little articles, whereas wiki B has the same content all
in
sections of one article; or where wiki A and wiki B have chosen
different
primary items for their treatment of a field.  (For example: the
profession
'hatmaker' or the activity 'hatmaking').


Allowing and encouraging sitelinks to redirect is the key to

keeping a

clean item structure on Wikidata, while still connecting readers to
the
most relevant pages in their preferred alternative languages.

     -- James.



On 14/10/2014 21:00, Jane Darnell wrote:

   nope

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Smolenski Nikola <

smolensk@eunet.rs>

wrote:

    Citiranje Jane Darnell <jane023@gmail.com>:

   2) There is no way of making an interwikilink for a redirect,

and

the

German Wikipedia's "afrikanische Pflaume" is currently a redirect
to
"Prunus"

You should still be able to make an interwiki link for a redirect
the
old
way,
are you not?

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