Hoi,

So by changing the venue and determining that another discussion is more "important" you reduce the relevance of what is happening. You also change the discussion.

That discussion is already old. That discussion came more or less to a conclusion. Its conclusion is not accepted by all. So moving the discussion there is not an option.

Your notion about the notability is one I disagree with and arguably wrong. Notability is given when the existence of items is necessary for the completeness of a set of data. Award winners is a perfect example for this. Thousands and thousands of items have been created as a result. The same is true for the inclusion through the Mix'n'Match tool. So notability is not relevant here.

When the argument is that an external party is the authority, when that is thought not to be acceptable, think again. There are plenty of examples where external parties are all there is to justify the creation of new items in Wikidata. Mix'n'Match is full of them .. So given that that argument does not hold, we are left with the Black Lunch Table. We are left with diversity.

Thanks,

GerardM

On 6 January 2018 at 14:05, Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote:

On 6 January 2018 at 01:34, Charles Horn <charles.horn@gmail.com> wrote:

> As a relatively recent contributor to Wikidata, I have been struggling to
> understand the objections to the Black Lunch Table's use of the catalog
> property and the points of view behind this discussion.

Understandably you may not be aware that this is a fork of discussions
on Wikidata, where several of the points you raise have already been
addressed. See:

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_deletions#Artist_of_Black_Lunch_Table

and:

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property_talk:P972#Abuse_of_this_property_for_original_research

> Q28781198:Black Lunch Table is P31:instance of Q21025364:WikiProject

> The objection is that anything entered into P972:Catalog MUST be
> P31:instance of Q2352616:catalog
>
> Is that it?

No. While that is the case, it is also true that "catalogue (P972)" is
defined as "Either a) catalog where the item appears (used as
qualifier for catalog code (P528)), or b) catalog of an exhibition
(Q464980)"

No-one contends that 'b'; applies, and the absence of P528 values fails 'a'.

There are also issues of notability concerning many of the items
created. these should be addressed by evidence (i.e. citations), but
instead we are being given argument by authority.

Furthermore, there are issues around the ambiguity of the items
created for such people: "Jane Doe, artist, female" could refer to
more than one person. With no URL, external ID or other value to
differentiate them from each other, these items cannot eb sued
meaningfully by third parties.

> It seems clear that the Black Lunch Table Wiki Project has a list of artists
> they are interested in, so I consider that the Black Lunch Table catalog is
> real thing.

Does it meet our notability requirements? How?

Indeed does it exist? Where? In what form? How can I see it? If the
answer to these latter questions is "on Wikidata", then the argument
is circular.

> Perhaps this raises questions about whether stubs or placeholder entries are
> acceptable on Wikidata?

We already have the answer; the notability policy. It is generally
very inclusive - far more so than Wikipedia's - so the egregious
failure of BLT community to demonstrate notability for many of the
items they are creating is telling.

> Last thing, apparently consensus advice was given to use P972:Catalog in
> this way

So we're told. Where is it evidenced? I for one don't find any clarity
about what was intended, in the discussion in which I participated,
which was a proposal for a property for the supposed catalogue's
unique identifiers - identifiers which it now turns out do not exist.

As I indicated above, discussion is ongoing on Wikidata. I suggest
that further discussion take place there, rather than on this list, as
on Wikidata it will carry more wight in deciding consensus

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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