Yes, let's discuss. I wrote a response to Peter's post here:
. Probably some on this list are aware of it but perhaps not all.
I believe it is important to separate out the different aspects of MathML as a standard.
Peter scoped his post by saying that it had failed as a WEB standard right in the title.
However, many will ignore that key word and see it as saying that MathML is a total
failure which is clearly not the case. On Hacker News, they even discussed how TeX was a
better language than MathML to type math. Peter's title is a provocative one and
subject to much misinterpretation. This is one of the main reasons I wrote my response. I
actually agree with a lot of Peter's observations but not their tone and the fact that
they are presented in a manner that invites misinterpretation by the many that do not
really understand MathML.
Design Science, Inc.
"How Science Communicates"
Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, Equation Editor
From: Moritz Schubotz [mailto:email@example.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2016 11:01 AM
To: Daniel Kinzler <daniel(a)brightbyte.de>de>; www-math(a)w3.org; Peter
Cc: Wikimedia developers <wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>rg>; Schubotz,
Moritz <schubotz(a)tu-berlin.de>de>; wikidata-tech <wikidata-
Subject: Re: MathML is dead, long live MathML
Ok. Let's discuss!
Most interesting for me is Peters statements
Content MathML is just not relevant.
Since I'm currently investigating how content MathML is used, and
whats needs to be done to get mathematical content from one system to
Currently, I have the impression that the latter question is
completely solved in theory, but completely unsolved in practise.
Disclaimer: While I really appreciate drinking beer with Peter, we
have slightly different approaches for de facto standards to share
mathematics in information systems.
On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Daniel Kinzler <daniel(a)brightbyte.de> wrote:
Peter Krautzberger, maintainer of MathJax,
apparently thinks that MathML
failed as a web standard (even though it
succeeded as an XML standard),
should be removed from HTML5. Here's the
It's quite a rant. Here's a quick TL;DR:
> It doesn’t matter whether or not MathML is a good XML language.
it’s quite alright. It’s also clearly a success in the XML publishing
world, serving an important role in standards such as JATS and BITS.
The problem is: MathML has failed on the web.
> Not a single browser vendor has stated an intent to work on the code, not
> single browser developer has been seen on the
MathWG. After 18 years,
browser vendor is willing to dedicate even a small percentage of a
developer to MathML.
> Math layout can and should be done in CSS and SVG. Let’s improve them
> incrementally to make it simpler.
> It’s possible to generate HTML+CSS or SVG that renders any MathML
> on the server, mind you, no client-side JS
required (but of course
> Since layout is practically solved (or at least achievable), we really need
> to solve the semantics. Presentation MathML is not sufficient, Content
> is just not relevant.
> We need to look where the web handles semantics today – that’s ARIA
microdata, rdfa etc.
I think both, the rendering as well as the semantics, are well worth thinking
about. Perhaps Wikimedia should reach out to Peter Krautzberger, and
some ideas of how math (and physics, and
chemistry) content should be
Wikipedia, Wikidata, and friends. This seems like
a cross roads, and we
have a hand in where things are going from
-- daniel (not a MathML expert all all)
TU Berlin, Fakultät IV
DIMA - Sekr. EN7
Tel.: +49 30 314 22784
Mobil.: +49 1578 047 1397
Fax: +49 30 314 21601