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Today's Topics:

1. MediaWiki 1.12 about to be branched: please give localisation
a push (Siebrand Mazeland)
2. Re: MediaWiki 1.12 about to be branched: please give
localisation a push (Michael Wolf)
3. Re: MediaWiki 1.12 about to be branched: please give
localisation a push (Siebrand Mazeland)
4. Re: [Wikitech-l] An update on localisation in MediaWiki
(Anders Wegge Jakobsen)
5. Re: [Wikitech-l] An update on localisation in MediaWiki
(Siebrand Mazeland)
6. Re: [Wikitech-l] An update on localisation in MediaWiki
(Anders Wegge Jakobsen)
7. Re: [Wikitech-l] An update on localisation inMediaWiki
(Siebrand Mazeland)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:21:33 +0100
From: "Siebrand Mazeland"
Subject: [Translators-l] MediaWiki 1.12 about to be branched: please
give localisation a push
To: "'MediaWiki internationalisation'"
, "'Wikimedia Translators'"

Message-ID: <007b01c871a2$b05dff50$4001a8c0@SMLT3>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Dear translators,

According to the last 'CTO weekly report'[1] Brion is about to
branch MediaWiki version 1.12 this week. That means that this
version of MediaWiki is the version of the software that new
users of MediaWiki will be using for a while (outside of
Wikimedia not everyone is always running the 'bleeding edge'
version of MediaWiki).

Even though this version of MediaWiki will have the largest
increase ever in support for languages, this is the time to
finish those loose ends.

Please check if you have any remaining translations in the
core messages or if you can at least complete the most often
used messages in the languages you are able to contribute to
in Betawiki[2].

End of year 2007 I sent out an overview of MediaWiki
localisation[3]. In that report I set a few ambitious goals
for MediaWiki localisation in 2008. I am happy to report that
we are well on track to reaching those goals[4],[5]. However,
it is very important to realise that localisation is an
ongoing process: messages are being added constantly and
sometimes they also change. These are all things that are made
visible when using Betawiki as the platform for MediaWiki
localisation. Based on user input, we also keep on improving
the tools used.

We still need more translators for languages that have not
been worked on for a while and languages that still have large
gaps in localisation.

Some localisation statistics for languages that have the 10
largest Wikipedias:

|-------------------------------------------|
| language | mostused | core | WMF | ext* |
|-------------------------------------------|
| English | 100% | 100% | 100% | 100% |
| German | 100% | 100% | 99% | 65% |
| French | 100% | 100% | 100% | 100% |
| Polish | 100% | 100% | 80% | 36% |
| Japanse | 100% | 100% | 58% | 32% |
| Italian | 100% | 100% | 64% | 26% |
| Dutch | 100% | 100% | 100% | 100% |
| Portugese | 100% | 100% | 100% | 74% |
| Spanish | 100% | 92% | 24% | 16% |
| Swedish | 100% | 100% | 100% | 56% |
|-------------------------------------------|

* Message groups are: most often used messages (mostused), all messages
in standard MediaWiki (core), all messages used in extensions that
Wikimedia wikis use (WMF), all extension messages (ext)

Have a great wiki experience and thank you for your help!

Cheers!

Siebrand

[1] http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2008-February/036405.html
[2] http://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Special:Translate&task=untranslated&group=core
[3] http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/translators-l/2007-December/000571.html
[4] http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Translating:Group_statistics
[5] http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Translating:Group_statistics_in_time




------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:34:33 +0100
From: Michael Wolf
Subject: Re: [Translators-l] MediaWiki 1.12 about to be branched:
please give localisation a push
To: Wikimedia Translators
Message-ID: <47B89A59.8070501@sorbzilla.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Siebrand Mazeland napisa:

> Some localisation statistics for languages that have the 10
> largest Wikipedias:
>
> |-------------------------------------------|
> | language | mostused | core | WMF | ext* |
> |-------------------------------------------|
> | English | 100% | 100% | 100% | 100% |
> | German | 100% | 100% | 99% | 65% |
> | French | 100% | 100% | 100% | 100% |
> | Polish | 100% | 100% | 80% | 36% |
> | Japanse | 100% | 100% | 58% | 32% |
> | Italian | 100% | 100% | 64% | 26% |
> | Dutch | 100% | 100% | 100% | 100% |
> | Portugese | 100% | 100% | 100% | 74% |
> | Spanish | 100% | 92% | 24% | 16% |
> | Swedish | 100% | 100% | 100% | 56% |
> |-------------------------------------------|

100%? They have been translated outside Betwaiki, am I right?
English? Did anybody translate from English into English? It isn't fair
to include it into statistics.
The 10 largest Wikipedias. Alwasy still the largest ones. :-( There are
some small Wikipedias that have been localized very well, too. ;-)

Kind regards
Michawiki





------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 00:39:59 +0100
From: "Siebrand Mazeland"
Subject: Re: [Translators-l] MediaWiki 1.12 about to be branched:
please give localisation a push
To: "'Wikimedia Translators'"
Message-ID: <008601c871be$68992110$4001a8c0@SMLT3>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Michael,

English is the source language, so that is always at 100% translated.
Because it still is a localisation, it has its place in the localisation
statistics. This does not mean that it has the highest quality. We regularly
find errors and typos in it and fix them. The English localisation is
usually made by developers and they are not always the best writers of User
Interface messages, as you may have noticed. ;)

About 10% of the localisations are being maintained outide Betawiki.
English, and German are among those. The other 8 languages I reported on are
being maintained in Betawiki. You can find a list as complete as possible on
http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Translating:Languages

I reported on the 10 languages with the largest Wikipedias as a teaser and
linked to the Group stats for a complete overview. I am kind of hoping the
Spanish translators will finally get the hint ;) I also mentioned my report
on localisation. I am planning on writing that 2-3 more times this year.
That will most definately not focus on Wikipedia and it's largest language
variants.

My previous email does in no way mean that Upper Sorbian (or any other
language with an almost complete localisation) would have a localisation of
lower quality. To the contrary. Maintenance for Upper Sorbian (but also for
Arabic, Occitan, and Slovenian) has been excellent over the past few months
and in the list of 300+ supported languages, it is among the languages that
have the most complete localisation. Credit where credit's due, but now I am
not mentioning another 70 or so languages for which people are also making
an effort; they have just not finished yet.

However, my mail would have gotten too long if I had mentioned each and
every aspect of what we as the Betawiki community are doing for MediaWiki
localisation. I do hope you understand.

Cheers! Siebrand

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: translators-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org
[mailto:translators-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Namens Michael Wolf
Verzonden: zondag 17 februari 2008 21:35
Aan: Wikimedia Translators
Onderwerp: Re: [Translators-l] MediaWiki 1.12 about to be branched: please
give localisation a push

[snip]

100%? They have been translated outside Betwaiki, am I right?
English? Did anybody translate from English into English? It isn't fair
to include it into statistics.
The 10 largest Wikipedias. Alwasy still the largest ones. :-( There are
some small Wikipedias that have been localized very well, too. ;-)

Kind regards
Michawiki




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 11:24:36 +0100
From: Anders Wegge Jakobsen
Subject: Re: [Translators-l] [Wikitech-l] An update on localisation in
MediaWiki
To: "Wikimedia developers" ,
"Wikimedia Translators" ,
"MediaWiki internationalisation"
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Anders Wegge Jakobsen writes:

Six weeks ago I became involved in an argument about translation of
the mediawiki software. I made the comment below.

> Yes, the obvious solution is that I maintain a private translation;
> at the same time one or more of the admins at dawiki plays catchup,
> whenever the inerface suddenly start sprouting english words, and the
> rest of the world get to see the worst of OSS. Everyone is happy.

Unfortunately, it have proven to be true. No substantial changes to
the danish localization have happened since then. Since I have cooled
of a bit since then, and my prediction have proven true, I'll try to
summarize the problems with localization on translatewiki as I see
them:

* With the current setup, translators will need to access the code, to
actually see what cryptical strings like 'You have not specified
target revision or revi sions to perform this function on.' actually
mean.

* That a web interface exists does not equal that a large horde of
skilled translators will be attracted.

* Noone likes to see others credited with their work.

This is not an attempt to renew a heated argument. The idea of
providing a relative easy-to-use interface for translation work is
better than having no one translating the interface into any
particular language. But in my opinion, it is not at present time a
substitute for having someone wit at least rudimentary PHP coding
skills doing the translation and submitting patches or direct commits
to svn.

And yes, the issue of crediting work was what angered me most. It
still is, and unless I'm the one individual in the world with the
thinnest skin on this matter, this issue will arise again.

--
// Wegge
- Alt om geocaching
Bruger du den gratis spamfighther ser jeg kun dine indl?g *EN* gang.

--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.




------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 11:47:39 +0100
From: "Siebrand Mazeland"
Subject: Re: [Translators-l] [Wikitech-l] An update on localisation in
MediaWiki
To: "'Wikimedia developers'" ,
"'Wikimedia Translators'" ,
"'MediaWiki internationalisation'"

Message-ID: <002201c8721b$aec4b6b0$4001a8c0@SMLT3>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi Wegge,

Contrary to your belief I think you I are still quite angry at something that happended or something that someone did or wrote. I have problem identifying what it is exactly, which makes it hard to address. I find few of the statements you made below to be true.

Can you let us know what you would need to be satisfied, or in your eyes be properly credited for everything you have done for the Danish translation? Your current choice of debate does not strike me as solution driven, which is something I personally very much prefer.

Kind regards,

Siebrand Mazeland

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: wikitech-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikitech-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Namens Anders Wegge Jakobsen
Verzonden: maandag 18 februari 2008 11:25
Aan: Wikimedia developers; Wikimedia Translators; MediaWiki internationalisation
Onderwerp: Re: [Wikitech-l] An update on localisation in MediaWiki

Anders Wegge Jakobsen writes:

Six weeks ago I became involved in an argument about translation of the mediawiki software. I made the comment below.

> Yes, the obvious solution is that I maintain a private translation;
> at the same time one or more of the admins at dawiki plays catchup,
> whenever the inerface suddenly start sprouting english words, and the
> rest of the world get to see the worst of OSS. Everyone is happy.

Unfortunately, it have proven to be true. No substantial changes to the danish localization have happened since then. Since I have cooled of a bit since then, and my prediction have proven true, I'll try to summarize the problems with localization on translatewiki as I see
them:

* With the current setup, translators will need to access the code, to
actually see what cryptical strings like 'You have not specified
target revision or revi sions to perform this function on.' actually
mean.

* That a web interface exists does not equal that a large horde of
skilled translators will be attracted.

* Noone likes to see others credited with their work.

This is not an attempt to renew a heated argument. The idea of providing a relative easy-to-use interface for translation work is better than having no one translating the interface into any particular language. But in my opinion, it is not at present time a substitute for having someone wit at least rudimentary PHP coding skills doing the translation and submitting patches or direct commits to svn.

And yes, the issue of crediting work was what angered me most. It still is, and unless I'm the one individual in the world with the thinnest skin on this matter, this issue will arise again.

--
// Wegge
- Alt om geocaching Bruger du den gratis spamfighther ser jeg kun dine indl?g *EN* gang.

--
This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.


_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l





------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:25:58 +0100
From: Anders Wegge Jakobsen
Subject: Re: [Translators-l] [Wikitech-l] An update on localisation in
MediaWiki
To: Wikimedia Translators
Cc: 'Wikimedia developers' ,
'MediaWiki internationalisation'
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

"Siebrand Mazeland" writes:

> Contrary to your belief I think you I are still quite angry at
> something that happended or something that someone did or wrote. I
> have problem identifying what it is exactly, which makes it hard to
> address. I find few of the statements you made below to be true.

Yes, I'm still angry about some of the comments. I will be for
eternity. But since that won't change, just forget it. Neither you,
nor Niklas is to be blamed for someone else making flippant remarks.

> Can you let us know what you would need to be satisfied, or in your
> eyes be properly credited for everything you have done for the
> Danish translation? Your current choice of debate does not strike me
> as solution driven, which is something I personally very much
> prefer.

The reason I may seem un-constructive, is the simple fact that while
I'm able to point out the problems as I see them, I have no idea how
to solve them. If we leave my ego out of the equation for the moment,
the main issue is that at some of the interface messages will be
completely unknown and opaque to the translators. The obvious solution
to that is instrumenting the code, so that any message can be seen in
its context. That is going to take quite a lot of time, and not
something I think will happen right away.

More realistic, would be crafting a set of more or less static pages,
that displays all of the messages in the contexts they are used. That
will ba a game of constant catchup, but at least it will be easier
than to change the entire codebase to include a demo feature of sorts.


--
// Wegge
- Alt om geocaching
Bruger du den gratis spamfighther ser jeg kun dine indl?g *EN* gang.

--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.




------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:57:47 +0100
From: "Siebrand Mazeland"
Subject: Re: [Translators-l] [Wikitech-l] An update on localisation
inMediaWiki
To: "'Wikimedia Translators'"
Cc: 'Wikimedia developers' ,
'MediaWiki internationalisation'
Message-ID: <002301c87225$7a690b00$4001a8c0@SMLT3>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi Wegge,

Thank you for your clarification. No system is perfect. I am of the opinion though that Translate can give more insight and information which leads to a more effective and efficient translation process than keeping an eye on SVN commits. Our opinions differ, obviously, so no need to elaborate on that. Instead, I chose to inform you. Please read on.

Extension Translate currently offers a way to add translation help in the language 'qqq'. Those hints are displayed in the Betawiki UI and are also exported to the .po files for offline translation. If the translation help is written correctly, translators would have all the context they need. All this is being done 'wiki-style', so improvements must be made and are being made.

An example of a translation hint is http://translatewiki.net/wiki/MediaWiki:Undeletelink/qqq for a message that was added recently.

Currently 588 of 1766 core messages have some form of documentation[1]. For extensions 99 messages have been documented. Making the sets complete is a lot of work. Currently about 10-15 messages are documented every week[2]. I would love more developer types like you to contribute on localisation by adding message documentation (basically it is a part of i18n). Please see this as an invitation. Anyone with the translator role can add such messages in Betawiki.

An example of a translation hint in Translate context can be seen at http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Image:Translation_hint_example.png. Additional fallback languages while translating are a second instrument we use to make life easier for translators[3].

I hope I have given you and others some additional insight in the workings of Betawiki with the above.

Cheers! Siebrand

[1] http://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Special%3ATranslate&task=reviewall&group=core&language=qqq&limit=100
[2] http://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?days=14&limit=250&title=Special%3ARecentchanges&namespace=8&trailer=%2Fqqq
[3] http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Image:Translation_fallback_example.png




------------------------------

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End of Translators-l Digest, Vol 32, Issue 5
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