Moving discussion to mobile-l.
On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway mholloway@wikimedia.org wrote:
OK by me.
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:53 AM, Adam Baso <abaso@wikimedia.org javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','abaso@wikimedia.org');> wrote:
Okay to move this discussion to mobile-l?
I'm talking with Editing (includes VE and Flow) this morning about engagement model and their short to medium term roadmap, which should be helpful in your guys' examination of bridge/stopgap solutions for this pretty fundamental stuff.
On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway <mholloway@wikimedia.org javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mholloway@wikimedia.org');> wrote:
Hey all,
Last week at Wikimania I had some interesting conversations about the Android app. On the whole, people really like the new and improved app, but there are definitely frustrations with the editing experience -- from people thinking it's not possible to edit in the app, to uninstalling it so that Google links direct them to the mobile website, where they vastly prefer the editing experience. Editors are a small but important group and I don't think we're doing them justice at the moment. Although reading is our focus, I would suggest we devote some resources to improving the editing experience as well. (It turns out that Abbey Ripstra and the design research team are running a survey research study on mobile contribution experiences as I write, so I'll be interested to hear what insights they have to offer.)
I also had a conversation with Asaf Bartov, who mentioned that it would be nice to be able to access talk pages in the mobile app. I'm sympathetic to this; most users may not care about talk pages, but they're very important to the editing experience, and even for savvy readers they offer useful commentary about what's on (or off) the page and why. So yesterday afternoon I hacked up a POC patch to add a toolbar button to flip back and forth between main articles and talk pages. Have a look and let me know what you think!
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/226297/
Cheers, Michael
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "android" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to android+unsubscribe@wikimedia.org. To post to this group, send email to android@wikimedia.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/d/msgid/android/CAMEEL1-AxGuy%2BGU... https://groups.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/d/msgid/android/CAMEEL1-AxGuy%2BGUT0f9fYiMVzqpGGwym58a%2BirvaG5njvVQ_Uw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer .
It's probably a dilettante-ish comment, but for a while already Flow has been working quite well on mobile web, incomparably better than the old talk pages, and it could be Flow's biggest "selling point". My intuition tells me that work to support talk pages on mobile should focus more on Flow and less on the old talk pages.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-22 10:12 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org:
Moving discussion to mobile-l.
On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway mholloway@wikimedia.org wrote:
OK by me.
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:53 AM, Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org wrote:
Okay to move this discussion to mobile-l?
I'm talking with Editing (includes VE and Flow) this morning about engagement model and their short to medium term roadmap, which should be helpful in your guys' examination of bridge/stopgap solutions for this pretty fundamental stuff.
On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway mholloway@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hey all,
Last week at Wikimania I had some interesting conversations about the Android app. On the whole, people really like the new and improved app, but there are definitely frustrations with the editing experience -- from people thinking it's not possible to edit in the app, to uninstalling it so that Google links direct them to the mobile website, where they vastly prefer the editing experience. Editors are a small but important group and I don't think we're doing them justice at the moment. Although reading is our focus, I would suggest we devote some resources to improving the editing experience as well. (It turns out that Abbey Ripstra and the design research team are running a survey research study on mobile contribution experiences as I write, so I'll be interested to hear what insights they have to offer.)
I also had a conversation with Asaf Bartov, who mentioned that it would be nice to be able to access talk pages in the mobile app. I'm sympathetic to this; most users may not care about talk pages, but they're very important to the editing experience, and even for savvy readers they offer useful commentary about what's on (or off) the page and why. So yesterday afternoon I hacked up a POC patch to add a toolbar button to flip back and forth between main articles and talk pages. Have a look and let me know what you think!
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/226297/
Cheers, Michael
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "android" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to android+unsubscribe@wikimedia.org. To post to this group, send email to android@wikimedia.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/d/msgid/android/CAMEEL1-AxGuy%2BGU... https://groups.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/d/msgid/android/CAMEEL1-AxGuy%2BGUT0f9fYiMVzqpGGwym58a%2BirvaG5njvVQ_Uw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer .
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Plus, Flow is backed by structured data, right? We apps engineers can't get enough structured data!
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:30 AM, Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
It's probably a dilettante-ish comment, but for a while already Flow has been working quite well on mobile web, incomparably better than the old talk pages, and it could be Flow's biggest "selling point". My intuition tells me that work to support talk pages on mobile should focus more on Flow and less on the old talk pages.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-22 10:12 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org:
Moving discussion to mobile-l.
On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway mholloway@wikimedia.org wrote:
OK by me.
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:53 AM, Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org wrote:
Okay to move this discussion to mobile-l?
I'm talking with Editing (includes VE and Flow) this morning about engagement model and their short to medium term roadmap, which should be helpful in your guys' examination of bridge/stopgap solutions for this pretty fundamental stuff.
On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway mholloway@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hey all,
Last week at Wikimania I had some interesting conversations about the Android app. On the whole, people really like the new and improved app, but there are definitely frustrations with the editing experience -- from people thinking it's not possible to edit in the app, to uninstalling it so that Google links direct them to the mobile website, where they vastly prefer the editing experience. Editors are a small but important group and I don't think we're doing them justice at the moment. Although reading is our focus, I would suggest we devote some resources to improving the editing experience as well. (It turns out that Abbey Ripstra and the design research team are running a survey research study on mobile contribution experiences as I write, so I'll be interested to hear what insights they have to offer.)
I also had a conversation with Asaf Bartov, who mentioned that it would be nice to be able to access talk pages in the mobile app. I'm sympathetic to this; most users may not care about talk pages, but they're very important to the editing experience, and even for savvy readers they offer useful commentary about what's on (or off) the page and why. So yesterday afternoon I hacked up a POC patch to add a toolbar button to flip back and forth between main articles and talk pages. Have a look and let me know what you think!
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/226297/
Cheers, Michael
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "android" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to android+unsubscribe@wikimedia.org. To post to this group, send email to android@wikimedia.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/d/msgid/android/CAMEEL1-AxGuy%2BGU... https://groups.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/d/msgid/android/CAMEEL1-AxGuy%2BGUT0f9fYiMVzqpGGwym58a%2BirvaG5njvVQ_Uw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer .
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Amir, are you referring to use of the inbuilt "desktop" mode of Flow, such as https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:MediaWiki?mobileaction=toggle_view_deskt... ?
-Adam
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
It's probably a dilettante-ish comment, but for a while already Flow has been working quite well on mobile web, incomparably better than the old talk pages, and it could be Flow's biggest "selling point". My intuition tells me that work to support talk pages on mobile should focus more on Flow and less on the old talk pages.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-22 10:12 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org:
Moving discussion to mobile-l.
On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway mholloway@wikimedia.org wrote:
OK by me.
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:53 AM, Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org wrote:
Okay to move this discussion to mobile-l?
I'm talking with Editing (includes VE and Flow) this morning about engagement model and their short to medium term roadmap, which should be helpful in your guys' examination of bridge/stopgap solutions for this pretty fundamental stuff.
On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway mholloway@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hey all,
Last week at Wikimania I had some interesting conversations about the Android app. On the whole, people really like the new and improved app, but there are definitely frustrations with the editing experience -- from people thinking it's not possible to edit in the app, to uninstalling it so that Google links direct them to the mobile website, where they vastly prefer the editing experience. Editors are a small but important group and I don't think we're doing them justice at the moment. Although reading is our focus, I would suggest we devote some resources to improving the editing experience as well. (It turns out that Abbey Ripstra and the design research team are running a survey research study on mobile contribution experiences as I write, so I'll be interested to hear what insights they have to offer.)
I also had a conversation with Asaf Bartov, who mentioned that it would be nice to be able to access talk pages in the mobile app. I'm sympathetic to this; most users may not care about talk pages, but they're very important to the editing experience, and even for savvy readers they offer useful commentary about what's on (or off) the page and why. So yesterday afternoon I hacked up a POC patch to add a toolbar button to flip back and forth between main articles and talk pages. Have a look and let me know what you think!
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/226297/
Cheers, Michael
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "android" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to android+unsubscribe@wikimedia.org. To post to this group, send email to android@wikimedia.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/d/msgid/android/CAMEEL1-AxGuy%2BGU... https://groups.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/d/msgid/android/CAMEEL1-AxGuy%2BGUT0f9fYiMVzqpGGwym58a%2BirvaG5njvVQ_Uw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer .
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
No, I'm not sure what does mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop do for Flow.
I was referring to rendering of Flow on mobile websites, for example https://m.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:CX or https://he.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Amire80 .
Trying it on an actual phone gives the best effect.
Though there certainly are some issues ( https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T93430 ), Flow pages work FAR better on phones than the classic talk pages.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-22 11:58 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org:
Amir, are you referring to use of the inbuilt "desktop" mode of Flow, such as https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:MediaWiki?mobileaction=toggle_view_deskt... ?
-Adam
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
It's probably a dilettante-ish comment, but for a while already Flow has been working quite well on mobile web, incomparably better than the old talk pages, and it could be Flow's biggest "selling point". My intuition tells me that work to support talk pages on mobile should focus more on Flow and less on the old talk pages.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-22 10:12 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org:
Moving discussion to mobile-l.
On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway mholloway@wikimedia.org wrote:
OK by me.
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:53 AM, Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org wrote:
Okay to move this discussion to mobile-l?
I'm talking with Editing (includes VE and Flow) this morning about engagement model and their short to medium term roadmap, which should be helpful in your guys' examination of bridge/stopgap solutions for this pretty fundamental stuff.
On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway mholloway@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hey all,
Last week at Wikimania I had some interesting conversations about the Android app. On the whole, people really like the new and improved app, but there are definitely frustrations with the editing experience -- from people thinking it's not possible to edit in the app, to uninstalling it so that Google links direct them to the mobile website, where they vastly prefer the editing experience. Editors are a small but important group and I don't think we're doing them justice at the moment. Although reading is our focus, I would suggest we devote some resources to improving the editing experience as well. (It turns out that Abbey Ripstra and the design research team are running a survey research study on mobile contribution experiences as I write, so I'll be interested to hear what insights they have to offer.)
I also had a conversation with Asaf Bartov, who mentioned that it would be nice to be able to access talk pages in the mobile app. I'm sympathetic to this; most users may not care about talk pages, but they're very important to the editing experience, and even for savvy readers they offer useful commentary about what's on (or off) the page and why. So yesterday afternoon I hacked up a POC patch to add a toolbar button to flip back and forth between main articles and talk pages. Have a look and let me know what you think!
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/226297/
Cheers, Michael
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "android" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to android+unsubscribe@wikimedia.org. To post to this group, send email to android@wikimedia.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/d/msgid/android/CAMEEL1-AxGuy%2BGU... https://groups.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/d/msgid/android/CAMEEL1-AxGuy%2BGUT0f9fYiMVzqpGGwym58a%2BirvaG5njvVQ_Uw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer .
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
I see. Now, this is enabled on certain pages at the moment, no? Or is there a means of activating the Flow mobile-compatible mode with well formed URLs or something like that for any given <lang>.m.wikipedia.org page? Apologies, I do most of my Talk page stuff on desktop typically. But that said, that is a pretty nice layout on those links you listed!
-Adam
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
No, I'm not sure what does mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop do for Flow.
I was referring to rendering of Flow on mobile websites, for example https://m.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:CX or https://he.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Amire80 .
Trying it on an actual phone gives the best effect.
Though there certainly are some issues ( https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T93430 ), Flow pages work FAR better on phones than the classic talk pages.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-22 11:58 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org:
Amir, are you referring to use of the inbuilt "desktop" mode of Flow, such as https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:MediaWiki?mobileaction=toggle_view_deskt... ?
-Adam
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
It's probably a dilettante-ish comment, but for a while already Flow has been working quite well on mobile web, incomparably better than the old talk pages, and it could be Flow's biggest "selling point". My intuition tells me that work to support talk pages on mobile should focus more on Flow and less on the old talk pages.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-22 10:12 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org:
Moving discussion to mobile-l.
On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway mholloway@wikimedia.org wrote:
OK by me.
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:53 AM, Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org wrote:
Okay to move this discussion to mobile-l?
I'm talking with Editing (includes VE and Flow) this morning about engagement model and their short to medium term roadmap, which should be helpful in your guys' examination of bridge/stopgap solutions for this pretty fundamental stuff.
On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway mholloway@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hey all,
Last week at Wikimania I had some interesting conversations about the Android app. On the whole, people really like the new and improved app, but there are definitely frustrations with the editing experience -- from people thinking it's not possible to edit in the app, to uninstalling it so that Google links direct them to the mobile website, where they vastly prefer the editing experience. Editors are a small but important group and I don't think we're doing them justice at the moment. Although reading is our focus, I would suggest we devote some resources to improving the editing experience as well. (It turns out that Abbey Ripstra and the design research team are running a survey research study on mobile contribution experiences as I write, so I'll be interested to hear what insights they have to offer.)
I also had a conversation with Asaf Bartov, who mentioned that it would be nice to be able to access talk pages in the mobile app. I'm sympathetic to this; most users may not care about talk pages, but they're very important to the editing experience, and even for savvy readers they offer useful commentary about what's on (or off) the page and why. So yesterday afternoon I hacked up a POC patch to add a toolbar button to flip back and forth between main articles and talk pages. Have a look and let me know what you think!
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/226297/
Cheers, Michael
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "android" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to android+unsubscribe@wikimedia.org. To post to this group, send email to android@wikimedia.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/d/msgid/android/CAMEEL1-AxGuy%2BGU... https://groups.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/d/msgid/android/CAMEEL1-AxGuy%2BGUT0f9fYiMVzqpGGwym58a%2BirvaG5njvVQ_Uw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer .
Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
I think we are far away from enabling flow on all pages in any project, but for mobile it would take away a lot of work to have a solution, which is working on mobile and desktop.
So far there is a TalkOverlay for all users with more than 5 edits (iirc), if you open a wiki page and scroll down you should see a “Discussion” button. Clicking that, you will see a “parsed” version of the discussions, but it is far far away from a good or useable way to read, let alone editing, on talk pages. But it’s better than nothing :)
Best,
Florian
Von: mobile-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:mobile-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Adam Baso Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. Juli 2015 19:28 An: Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il Cc: mobile-l mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org Betreff: Re: [WikimediaMobile] In-app editing / talk pages support
I see. Now, this is enabled on certain pages at the moment, no? Or is there a means of activating the Flow mobile-compatible mode with well formed URLs or something like that for any given <lang>.m.wikipedia.org http://m.wikipedia.org page? Apologies, I do most of my Talk page stuff on desktop typically. But that said, that is a pretty nice layout on those links you listed!
-Adam
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Amir E. Aharoni <amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il mailto:amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il > wrote:
No, I'm not sure what does mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop do for Flow.
I was referring to rendering of Flow on mobile websites, for example https://m.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:CX or https://he.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Amire80 .
Trying it on an actual phone gives the best effect.
Though there certainly are some issues ( https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T93430 ), Flow pages work FAR better on phones than the classic talk pages.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-22 11:58 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso <abaso@wikimedia.org mailto:abaso@wikimedia.org >:
Amir, are you referring to use of the inbuilt "desktop" mode of Flow, such as https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:MediaWiki?mobileaction=toggle_view_deskt... ?
-Adam
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Amir E. Aharoni <amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il mailto:amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il > wrote:
It's probably a dilettante-ish comment, but for a while already Flow has been working quite well on mobile web, incomparably better than the old talk pages, and it could be Flow's biggest "selling point". My intuition tells me that work to support talk pages on mobile should focus more on Flow and less on the old talk pages.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-22 10:12 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso <abaso@wikimedia.org mailto:abaso@wikimedia.org >:
Moving discussion to mobile-l.
On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway <mholloway@wikimedia.org mailto:mholloway@wikimedia.org > wrote:
OK by me.
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:53 AM, Adam Baso < mailto:abaso@wikimedia.org abaso@wikimedia.org> wrote:
Okay to move this discussion to mobile-l?
I'm talking with Editing (includes VE and Flow) this morning about engagement model and their short to medium term roadmap, which should be helpful in your guys' examination of bridge/stopgap solutions for this pretty fundamental stuff.
On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway < mailto:mholloway@wikimedia.org mholloway@wikimedia.org> wrote:
Hey all,
Last week at Wikimania I had some interesting conversations about the Android app. On the whole, people really like the new and improved app, but there are definitely frustrations with the editing experience -- from people thinking it's not possible to edit in the app, to uninstalling it so that Google links direct them to the mobile website, where they vastly prefer the editing experience. Editors are a small but important group and I don't think we're doing them justice at the moment. Although reading is our focus, I would suggest we devote some resources to improving the editing experience as well. (It turns out that Abbey Ripstra and the design research team are running a survey research study on mobile contribution experiences as I write, so I'll be interested to hear what insights they have to offer.)
I also had a conversation with Asaf Bartov, who mentioned that it would be nice to be able to access talk pages in the mobile app. I'm sympathetic to this; most users may not care about talk pages, but they're very important to the editing experience, and even for savvy readers they offer useful commentary about what's on (or off) the page and why. So yesterday afternoon I hacked up a POC patch to add a toolbar button to flip back and forth between main articles and talk pages. Have a look and let me know what you think!
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/226297/
Cheers,
Michael
Now, this is enabled on certain pages at the moment, no?
Yes, only on particular pages.
At least one Wikipedia has it on Village Pump - Catalan: https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viquip%C3%A8dia:La_taverna/Novetats .
AFAIK, the intention is to transition all talk and discussion ages to Flow some day, and I don't know when will it actually happen. Maybe Danny has a better idea.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-22 12:28 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org:
I see. Now, this is enabled on certain pages at the moment, no? Or is there a means of activating the Flow mobile-compatible mode with well formed URLs or something like that for any given <lang>.m.wikipedia.org page? Apologies, I do most of my Talk page stuff on desktop typically. But that said, that is a pretty nice layout on those links you listed!
-Adam
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
No, I'm not sure what does mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop do for Flow.
I was referring to rendering of Flow on mobile websites, for example https://m.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:CX or https://he.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Amire80 .
Trying it on an actual phone gives the best effect.
Though there certainly are some issues ( https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T93430 ), Flow pages work FAR better on phones than the classic talk pages.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-22 11:58 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org:
Amir, are you referring to use of the inbuilt "desktop" mode of Flow, such as https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:MediaWiki?mobileaction=toggle_view_deskt... ?
-Adam
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
It's probably a dilettante-ish comment, but for a while already Flow has been working quite well on mobile web, incomparably better than the old talk pages, and it could be Flow's biggest "selling point". My intuition tells me that work to support talk pages on mobile should focus more on Flow and less on the old talk pages.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-22 10:12 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org:
Moving discussion to mobile-l.
On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway mholloway@wikimedia.org wrote:
OK by me.
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:53 AM, Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org wrote:
Okay to move this discussion to mobile-l?
I'm talking with Editing (includes VE and Flow) this morning about engagement model and their short to medium term roadmap, which should be helpful in your guys' examination of bridge/stopgap solutions for this pretty fundamental stuff.
On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway mholloway@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hey all,
Last week at Wikimania I had some interesting conversations about the Android app. On the whole, people really like the new and improved app, but there are definitely frustrations with the editing experience -- from people thinking it's not possible to edit in the app, to uninstalling it so that Google links direct them to the mobile website, where they vastly prefer the editing experience. Editors are a small but important group and I don't think we're doing them justice at the moment. Although reading is our focus, I would suggest we devote some resources to improving the editing experience as well. (It turns out that Abbey Ripstra and the design research team are running a survey research study on mobile contribution experiences as I write, so I'll be interested to hear what insights they have to offer.)
I also had a conversation with Asaf Bartov, who mentioned that it would be nice to be able to access talk pages in the mobile app. I'm sympathetic to this; most users may not care about talk pages, but they're very important to the editing experience, and even for savvy readers they offer useful commentary about what's on (or off) the page and why. So yesterday afternoon I hacked up a POC patch to add a toolbar button to flip back and forth between main articles and talk pages. Have a look and let me know what you think!
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/226297/
Cheers, Michael
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Thanks for taking initiative on this, Michael! Talk pages are indeed part of the life-blood of Wikipedia, and should ideally be accessible from the app. Here, however, are the challenges I see with the kind of implementation that you're proposing:
Amir correctly notes that Flow is gradually poising itself to replace traditional talk pages, being backed by structured data and a nice API that the apps will be able to use natively. If we want to get talk pages "right," we would need to implement a great native presentation of Flow.
But more importantly, you mentioned yourself that talk pages are really part of the _editing_ experience. And, quite frankly, we have to remind ourselves that the apps are still light years away from having a good editing experience. Therefore, providing access to talk pages without providing the other fundamentals that are central to editing (moderation tools, watchlists, diffs, notifications, etc) may be putting the cart before the horse, and may lead to confusion. In fact, I'm not sure if any *one* of those editing features makes sense without all the others. And to implement all of those features in the apps would require a department-wide focus on editing, which is currently not the case.
All that being said, I'm not opposed to making gradual progress towards better editing features, as long as we maintain our focus on creating a beautiful reading experience. To sum up, I'm not opposed to adding an option to go to the Talk page of an article, but until the app has a more robust editing experience, I would suggest that this option takes the user to the Mobile Web version of the talk page (like we currently do for article history), and make it much less prominent than a primary action in the Toolbar.
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 1:34 PM, Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
Now, this is enabled on certain pages at the moment, no?
Yes, only on particular pages.
At least one Wikipedia has it on Village Pump - Catalan: https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viquip%C3%A8dia:La_taverna/Novetats .
AFAIK, the intention is to transition all talk and discussion ages to Flow some day, and I don't know when will it actually happen. Maybe Danny has a better idea.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-22 12:28 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org:
I see. Now, this is enabled on certain pages at the moment, no? Or is there a means of activating the Flow mobile-compatible mode with well formed URLs or something like that for any given <lang>.m.wikipedia.org page? Apologies, I do most of my Talk page stuff on desktop typically. But that said, that is a pretty nice layout on those links you listed!
-Adam
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
No, I'm not sure what does mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop do for Flow.
I was referring to rendering of Flow on mobile websites, for example https://m.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:CX or https://he.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Amire80 .
Trying it on an actual phone gives the best effect.
Though there certainly are some issues ( https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T93430 ), Flow pages work FAR better on phones than the classic talk pages.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-22 11:58 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org:
Amir, are you referring to use of the inbuilt "desktop" mode of Flow, such as https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:MediaWiki?mobileaction=toggle_view_deskt... ?
-Adam
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
It's probably a dilettante-ish comment, but for a while already Flow has been working quite well on mobile web, incomparably better than the old talk pages, and it could be Flow's biggest "selling point". My intuition tells me that work to support talk pages on mobile should focus more on Flow and less on the old talk pages.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-22 10:12 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org:
Moving discussion to mobile-l.
On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway mholloway@wikimedia.org wrote:
OK by me.
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:53 AM, Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org wrote:
Okay to move this discussion to mobile-l?
I'm talking with Editing (includes VE and Flow) this morning about engagement model and their short to medium term roadmap, which should be helpful in your guys' examination of bridge/stopgap solutions for this pretty fundamental stuff.
On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway < mholloway@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> Hey all, > > Last week at Wikimania I had some interesting conversations about > the Android app. On the whole, people really like the new and improved > app, but there are definitely frustrations with the editing experience -- > from people thinking it's not possible to edit in the app, to uninstalling > it so that Google links direct them to the mobile website, where they > vastly prefer the editing experience. Editors are a small but important > group and I don't think we're doing them justice at the moment. Although > reading is our focus, I would suggest we devote some resources to improving > the editing experience as well. (It turns out that Abbey Ripstra and the > design research team are running a survey research study on mobile > contribution experiences as I write, so I'll be interested to hear what > insights they have to offer.) > > I also had a conversation with Asaf Bartov, who mentioned that it > would be nice to be able to access talk pages in the mobile app. I'm > sympathetic to this; most users may not care about talk pages, but they're > very important to the editing experience, and even for savvy readers they > offer useful commentary about what's on (or off) the page and why. So > yesterday afternoon I hacked up a POC patch to add a toolbar button to flip > back and forth between main articles and talk pages. Have a look and let > me know what you think! > > https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/226297/ > > Cheers, > Michael > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "android" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an email to android+unsubscribe@wikimedia.org. > To post to this group, send email to android@wikimedia.org. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/d/msgid/android/CAMEEL1-AxGuy%2BGU... > https://groups.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/d/msgid/android/CAMEEL1-AxGuy%2BGUT0f9fYiMVzqpGGwym58a%2BirvaG5njvVQ_Uw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer > . >
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But more importantly, you mentioned yourself that talk pages are really part of the _editing_ experience. And, quite frankly, we have to remind ourselves that the apps are still light years away from having a good editing experience.
I think Dan Garry was the last person who I heard say "I don't want great to be the enemy of good," which I think is worth keeping in mind here. Is chat functionality something that only delivers value when paired with full editing capabilities, or that can deliver user (and organization) value on its own? Seems like a good question/experiment to me.
Also, this is yet another reason why we need push notifications (Gather/Watchlist + Chat = MOAR ENGAGEMENTZ \o/).
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 1:52 PM, Dmitry Brant dbrant@wikimedia.org wrote:
Thanks for taking initiative on this, Michael! Talk pages are indeed part of the life-blood of Wikipedia, and should ideally be accessible from the app. Here, however, are the challenges I see with the kind of implementation that you're proposing:
Amir correctly notes that Flow is gradually poising itself to replace traditional talk pages, being backed by structured data and a nice API that the apps will be able to use natively. If we want to get talk pages "right," we would need to implement a great native presentation of Flow.
But more importantly, you mentioned yourself that talk pages are really part of the _editing_ experience. And, quite frankly, we have to remind ourselves that the apps are still light years away from having a good editing experience. Therefore, providing access to talk pages without providing the other fundamentals that are central to editing (moderation tools, watchlists, diffs, notifications, etc) may be putting the cart before the horse, and may lead to confusion. In fact, I'm not sure if any *one* of those editing features makes sense without all the others. And to implement all of those features in the apps would require a department-wide focus on editing, which is currently not the case.
All that being said, I'm not opposed to making gradual progress towards better editing features, as long as we maintain our focus on creating a beautiful reading experience. To sum up, I'm not opposed to adding an option to go to the Talk page of an article, but until the app has a more robust editing experience, I would suggest that this option takes the user to the Mobile Web version of the talk page (like we currently do for article history), and make it much less prominent than a primary action in the Toolbar.
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 1:34 PM, Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
Now, this is enabled on certain pages at the moment, no?
Yes, only on particular pages.
At least one Wikipedia has it on Village Pump - Catalan: https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viquip%C3%A8dia:La_taverna/Novetats .
AFAIK, the intention is to transition all talk and discussion ages to Flow some day, and I don't know when will it actually happen. Maybe Danny has a better idea.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-22 12:28 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org:
I see. Now, this is enabled on certain pages at the moment, no? Or is there a means of activating the Flow mobile-compatible mode with well formed URLs or something like that for any given <lang>.m.wikipedia.org page? Apologies, I do most of my Talk page stuff on desktop typically. But that said, that is a pretty nice layout on those links you listed!
-Adam
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
No, I'm not sure what does mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop do for Flow.
I was referring to rendering of Flow on mobile websites, for example https://m.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:CX or https://he.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Amire80 .
Trying it on an actual phone gives the best effect.
Though there certainly are some issues ( https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T93430 ), Flow pages work FAR better on phones than the classic talk pages.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-22 11:58 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org:
Amir, are you referring to use of the inbuilt "desktop" mode of Flow, such as https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:MediaWiki?mobileaction=toggle_view_deskt... ?
-Adam
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
It's probably a dilettante-ish comment, but for a while already Flow has been working quite well on mobile web, incomparably better than the old talk pages, and it could be Flow's biggest "selling point". My intuition tells me that work to support talk pages on mobile should focus more on Flow and less on the old talk pages.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-22 10:12 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org:
Moving discussion to mobile-l.
On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway mholloway@wikimedia.org wrote:
OK by me.
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:53 AM, Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org wrote:
> Okay to move this discussion to mobile-l? > > I'm talking with Editing (includes VE and Flow) this morning about > engagement model and their short to medium term roadmap, which should be > helpful in your guys' examination of bridge/stopgap solutions for this > pretty fundamental stuff. > > > On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway < > mholloway@wikimedia.org> wrote: > >> Hey all, >> >> Last week at Wikimania I had some interesting conversations about >> the Android app. On the whole, people really like the new and improved >> app, but there are definitely frustrations with the editing experience -- >> from people thinking it's not possible to edit in the app, to uninstalling >> it so that Google links direct them to the mobile website, where they >> vastly prefer the editing experience. Editors are a small but important >> group and I don't think we're doing them justice at the moment. Although >> reading is our focus, I would suggest we devote some resources to improving >> the editing experience as well. (It turns out that Abbey Ripstra and the >> design research team are running a survey research study on mobile >> contribution experiences as I write, so I'll be interested to hear what >> insights they have to offer.) >> >> I also had a conversation with Asaf Bartov, who mentioned that it >> would be nice to be able to access talk pages in the mobile app. I'm >> sympathetic to this; most users may not care about talk pages, but they're >> very important to the editing experience, and even for savvy readers they >> offer useful commentary about what's on (or off) the page and why. So >> yesterday afternoon I hacked up a POC patch to add a toolbar button to flip >> back and forth between main articles and talk pages. Have a look and let >> me know what you think! >> >> https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/226297/ >> >> Cheers, >> Michael >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "android" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> send an email to android+unsubscribe@wikimedia.org. >> To post to this group, send email to android@wikimedia.org. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/d/msgid/android/CAMEEL1-AxGuy%2BGU... >> https://groups.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/d/msgid/android/CAMEEL1-AxGuy%2BGUT0f9fYiMVzqpGGwym58a%2BirvaG5njvVQ_Uw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer >> . >> >
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On 22 July 2015 at 14:00, Brian Gerstle bgerstle@wikimedia.org wrote:
But more importantly, you mentioned yourself that talk pages are really part of the _editing_ experience. And, quite frankly, we have to remind ourselves that the apps are still light years away from having a good editing experience.
I think Dan Garry was the last person who I heard say "I don't want great to be the enemy of good," which I think is worth keeping in mind here. Is chat functionality something that only delivers value when paired with full editing capabilities, or that can deliver user (and organization) value on its own? Seems like a good question/experiment to me.
Identifying "talk pages" with "chat" is to misunderstand how talkpages are used. Talkpages are used for discussion, yes; they are also used to display notices about the article and about restrictions the article might be under, identify users who might be able to help with problems, and in the case of user talkpages, display notifications, including welcomes and warnings.
Or to put it another way: if there is an environment that supports editing but not talkpages, it is an environment that allows users to be blocked for good-faith edits, after receiving repeated warnings, that the system never displayed to them, and it is also an environment - on a collaborative project, no less - that offers them no assistance if they run into trouble and makes them believe, whether it is the truth or not, that they're editing in a vacuum.
Talkpages are not required for /an/ editing experience. But a full-fledged editing experience is one that lets users avoid problems they're informed about and reach out about ones they spot themselves. An environment in which a user's first notification that anyone is even aware they exist is getting /blocked/ is not fully-fledged.
Also, this is yet another reason why we need push notifications (Gather/Watchlist + Chat = MOAR ENGAGEMENTZ \o/).
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 1:52 PM, Dmitry Brant dbrant@wikimedia.org wrote:
Thanks for taking initiative on this, Michael! Talk pages are indeed part of the life-blood of Wikipedia, and should ideally be accessible from the app. Here, however, are the challenges I see with the kind of implementation that you're proposing:
Amir correctly notes that Flow is gradually poising itself to replace traditional talk pages, being backed by structured data and a nice API that the apps will be able to use natively. If we want to get talk pages "right," we would need to implement a great native presentation of Flow.
But more importantly, you mentioned yourself that talk pages are really part of the _editing_ experience. And, quite frankly, we have to remind ourselves that the apps are still light years away from having a good editing experience. Therefore, providing access to talk pages without providing the other fundamentals that are central to editing (moderation tools, watchlists, diffs, notifications, etc) may be putting the cart before the horse, and may lead to confusion. In fact, I'm not sure if any *one* of those editing features makes sense without all the others. And to implement all of those features in the apps would require a department-wide focus on editing, which is currently not the case.
All that being said, I'm not opposed to making gradual progress towards better editing features, as long as we maintain our focus on creating a beautiful reading experience. To sum up, I'm not opposed to adding an option to go to the Talk page of an article, but until the app has a more robust editing experience, I would suggest that this option takes the user to the Mobile Web version of the talk page (like we currently do for article history), and make it much less prominent than a primary action in the Toolbar.
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 1:34 PM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
Now, this is enabled on certain pages at the moment, no?
Yes, only on particular pages.
At least one Wikipedia has it on Village Pump - Catalan: https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viquip%C3%A8dia:La_taverna/Novetats .
AFAIK, the intention is to transition all talk and discussion ages to Flow some day, and I don't know when will it actually happen. Maybe Danny has a better idea.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-22 12:28 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org:
I see. Now, this is enabled on certain pages at the moment, no? Or is there a means of activating the Flow mobile-compatible mode with well formed URLs or something like that for any given <lang>.m.wikipedia.org page? Apologies, I do most of my Talk page stuff on desktop typically. But that said, that is a pretty nice layout on those links you listed!
-Adam
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
No, I'm not sure what does mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop do for Flow.
I was referring to rendering of Flow on mobile websites, for example https://m.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:CX or https://he.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Amire80 .
Trying it on an actual phone gives the best effect.
Though there certainly are some issues ( https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T93430 ), Flow pages work FAR better on phones than the classic talk pages.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-22 11:58 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org:
Amir, are you referring to use of the inbuilt "desktop" mode of Flow, such as https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:MediaWiki?mobileaction=toggle_view_deskt... ?
-Adam
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il wrote:
It's probably a dilettante-ish comment, but for a while already Flow has been working quite well on mobile web, incomparably better than the old talk pages, and it could be Flow's biggest "selling point". My intuition tells me that work to support talk pages on mobile should focus more on Flow and less on the old talk pages.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com “We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2015-07-22 10:12 GMT-05:00 Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org:
Moving discussion to mobile-l.
On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway mholloway@wikimedia.org wrote: > > OK by me. > > On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:53 AM, Adam Baso abaso@wikimedia.org > wrote: >> >> Okay to move this discussion to mobile-l? >> >> I'm talking with Editing (includes VE and Flow) this morning about >> engagement model and their short to medium term roadmap, which should be >> helpful in your guys' examination of bridge/stopgap solutions for this >> pretty fundamental stuff. >> >> >> On Wednesday, July 22, 2015, Michael Holloway >> mholloway@wikimedia.org wrote: >>> >>> Hey all, >>> >>> Last week at Wikimania I had some interesting conversations about >>> the Android app. On the whole, people really like the new and improved app, >>> but there are definitely frustrations with the editing experience -- from >>> people thinking it's not possible to edit in the app, to uninstalling it so >>> that Google links direct them to the mobile website, where they vastly >>> prefer the editing experience. Editors are a small but important group and >>> I don't think we're doing them justice at the moment. Although reading is >>> our focus, I would suggest we devote some resources to improving the editing >>> experience as well. (It turns out that Abbey Ripstra and the design >>> research team are running a survey research study on mobile contribution >>> experiences as I write, so I'll be interested to hear what insights they >>> have to offer.) >>> >>> I also had a conversation with Asaf Bartov, who mentioned that it >>> would be nice to be able to access talk pages in the mobile app. I'm >>> sympathetic to this; most users may not care about talk pages, but they're >>> very important to the editing experience, and even for savvy readers they >>> offer useful commentary about what's on (or off) the page and why. So >>> yesterday afternoon I hacked up a POC patch to add a toolbar button to flip >>> back and forth between main articles and talk pages. Have a look and let me >>> know what you think! >>> >>> https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/226297/ >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Michael >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "android" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>> send an email to android+unsubscribe@wikimedia.org. >>> To post to this group, send email to android@wikimedia.org. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/d/msgid/android/CAMEEL1-AxGuy%2BGU.... > >
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On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:52 AM, Dmitry Brant dbrant@wikimedia.org wrote:
But more importantly, you mentioned yourself that talk pages are really part of the _editing_ experience. And, quite frankly, we have to remind ourselves that the apps are still light years away from having a good editing experience. Therefore, providing access to talk pages without providing the other fundamentals that are central to editing (moderation tools, watchlists, diffs, notifications, etc) may be putting the cart before the horse, and may lead to confusion. In fact, I'm not sure if any *one* of those editing features makes sense without all the others. And to implement all of those features in the apps would require a department-wide focus on editing, which is currently not the case.
Most editors probably own multiple devices, so a partial but good editing experience is probably more useful than a full but poor one. Large-scale article editing is never going to be competitive on mobile due to the inherent limitations of the platform such as the tiny display and slow text input, so most editors will always use their laptops for that. But if other pieces of their workload, which *can* be done well on mobile (such as messaging or patrolling or processing certain backlogs) are well-supported, that means more desktop time for actual article editing.
So I don't think the kind of interdependencies that you mention exist. Much of the talk page communication can be detached from editing and done in a different part of the day, and providing an interface for that will mean that editors can check their messages while on the bus and do the editing when at home. (And for users who do not have other means to access Wikipedia than a phone, a partial experience is probably still better than no experience.)
But can the apps' reading experience make the Kessel Run in less than 12 Parsecs?
And, quite frankly, we have to remind ourselves that the apps are still light years away from having a good editing experience.
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Gergo Tisza gtisza@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:52 AM, Dmitry Brant dbrant@wikimedia.org wrote:
But more importantly, you mentioned yourself that talk pages are really part of the _editing_ experience. And, quite frankly, we have to remind ourselves that the apps are still light years away from having a good editing experience. Therefore, providing access to talk pages without providing the other fundamentals that are central to editing (moderation tools, watchlists, diffs, notifications, etc) may be putting the cart before the horse, and may lead to confusion. In fact, I'm not sure if any *one* of those editing features makes sense without all the others. And to implement all of those features in the apps would require a department-wide focus on editing, which is currently not the case.
Most editors probably own multiple devices, so a partial but good editing experience is probably more useful than a full but poor one. Large-scale article editing is never going to be competitive on mobile due to the inherent limitations of the platform such as the tiny display and slow text input, so most editors will always use their laptops for that. But if other pieces of their workload, which *can* be done well on mobile (such as messaging or patrolling or processing certain backlogs) are well-supported, that means more desktop time for actual article editing.
So I don't think the kind of interdependencies that you mention exist. Much of the talk page communication can be detached from editing and done in a different part of the day, and providing an interface for that will mean that editors can check their messages while on the bus and do the editing when at home. (And for users who do not have other means to access Wikipedia than a phone, a partial experience is probably still better than no experience.)
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Well played, sir
On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 4:30 PM, Corey Floyd cfloyd@wikimedia.org wrote:
But can the apps' reading experience make the Kessel Run in less than 12 Parsecs?
And, quite frankly, we have to remind ourselves that the apps are still light years away from having a good editing experience.
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Gergo Tisza gtisza@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:52 AM, Dmitry Brant dbrant@wikimedia.org wrote:
But more importantly, you mentioned yourself that talk pages are really part of the _editing_ experience. And, quite frankly, we have to remind ourselves that the apps are still light years away from having a good editing experience. Therefore, providing access to talk pages without providing the other fundamentals that are central to editing (moderation tools, watchlists, diffs, notifications, etc) may be putting the cart before the horse, and may lead to confusion. In fact, I'm not sure if any *one* of those editing features makes sense without all the others. And to implement all of those features in the apps would require a department-wide focus on editing, which is currently not the case.
Most editors probably own multiple devices, so a partial but good editing experience is probably more useful than a full but poor one. Large-scale article editing is never going to be competitive on mobile due to the inherent limitations of the platform such as the tiny display and slow text input, so most editors will always use their laptops for that. But if other pieces of their workload, which *can* be done well on mobile (such as messaging or patrolling or processing certain backlogs) are well-supported, that means more desktop time for actual article editing.
So I don't think the kind of interdependencies that you mention exist. Much of the talk page communication can be detached from editing and done in a different part of the day, and providing an interface for that will mean that editors can check their messages while on the bus and do the editing when at home. (And for users who do not have other means to access Wikipedia than a phone, a partial experience is probably still better than no experience.)
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-- Corey Floyd Software Engineer Mobile Apps / iOS Wikimedia Foundation
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On 22 July 2015 at 10:52, Dmitry Brant dbrant@wikimedia.org wrote:
Therefore, providing access to talk pages without providing the other fundamentals that are central to editing (moderation tools, watchlists, diffs, notifications, etc) may be putting the cart before the horse, and may lead to confusion.
I think you hit the nail on the head with this comment.
Experienced Wikipedians know the value of talk pages. For many of them, talk pages actually comprise the majority of their usage of the site. But, the majority of their navigation to those pages are through their watchlist, so adding a talk page link doesn't serve them; they know the talk page is there, and how to find it if they need it.
For newer users, talk pages are their entry point into the inner workings of the wiki, and how they get sucked in. But, there are some pretty fundamental https://i.imgur.com/UOqtyoM.png formatting issues with talk pages in the app right now. If you're going to make it read only, how are you going to explain to users why other users are leaving comments, but they can't edit it? Suddenly, there are a lot of questions that will take a lot of team bandwidth, designs, and discussions to answer. Can you commit to answering all of these questions given the other work you have in the pipeline?
For the reasons above, I was opposed (and still am) to adding links to talk pages in the app. For experienced editors, they know where to find them and don't need a button to get there. For readers (the primary user type that the app supports), the talk page experience in the app is not good enough to expose the users to it, and we never had the capacity to get the experience to a place where it was good enough for them without considerable work to build out the entire pipeline.
Dan
+1 Dan's "team bandwidth" comment.
I totally want to implement native interfaces for all of the fundamentals central to editing which Dmitry listed, but we'll just need to plan and stage things very deliberately.
If we eventually do commit to this, we may even consider keeping all of these fundamental editing interfaces "beta only" until all parts are working and working well together - even if this takes a while.
On Jul 24, 2015, at 7:38 PM, Dan Garry dgarry@wikimedia.org wrote:
On 22 July 2015 at 10:52, Dmitry Brant dbrant@wikimedia.org wrote: Therefore, providing access to talk pages without providing the other fundamentals that are central to editing (moderation tools, watchlists, diffs, notifications, etc) may be putting the cart before the horse, and may lead to confusion.
I think you hit the nail on the head with this comment.
Experienced Wikipedians know the value of talk pages. For many of them, talk pages actually comprise the majority of their usage of the site. But, the majority of their navigation to those pages are through their watchlist, so adding a talk page link doesn't serve them; they know the talk page is there, and how to find it if they need it.
For newer users, talk pages are their entry point into the inner workings of the wiki, and how they get sucked in. But, there are some pretty fundamental formatting issues with talk pages in the app right now. If you're going to make it read only, how are you going to explain to users why other users are leaving comments, but they can't edit it? Suddenly, there are a lot of questions that will take a lot of team bandwidth, designs, and discussions to answer. Can you commit to answering all of these questions given the other work you have in the pipeline?
For the reasons above, I was opposed (and still am) to adding links to talk pages in the app. For experienced editors, they know where to find them and don't need a button to get there. For readers (the primary user type that the app supports), the talk page experience in the app is not good enough to expose the users to it, and we never had the capacity to get the experience to a place where it was good enough for them without considerable work to build out the entire pipeline.
Dan
-- Dan Garry Lead Product Manager, Discovery Wikimedia Foundation _______________________________________________ Mobile-l mailing list Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l
Dan Garry, 25/07/2015 02:38:
But, there are some pretty fundamental https://i.imgur.com/UOqtyoM.png formatting issues with talk pages in the app right now.
Do you mean the templates should be uncollapsed by default? That could help, but they're fine like that as well.
Nemo
for savvy readers they offer useful commentary about what's on (or off) the page and why.
Yes. And this doesn't require any special magic: wikitext pages are equally ready to be read whether they are in namespace 1 or in namespace 0.
Nemo
I agree that read-only access to talk pages from the app will be a great improvement, even without editing. Even if I can't fully respond while on my mobile device, I want to at least be able to see the discussions. My current workflow frequently involves manually searching for the talk page in the app. And most talk pages are actually quite readable.
-Sage
On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 3:52 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com wrote:
for savvy readers they offer useful commentary about what's on (or off) the page and why.
Yes. And this doesn't require any special magic: wikitext pages are equally ready to be read whether they are in namespace 1 or in namespace 0.
Nemo
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I'm also in favor of adding Talk links to the apps. In fact it did a very simple PoC[1] for the Android app a while ago, which I just rebased and updated comments yesterday.
It's not perfect but I think it works pretty decently with regular Talk pages. For Flow pages[2] more CSS is needed to make it look right. I've dabbled with getting some Flow CSS included into our CSS bundle but there are still a lot of issues left besides that[3]. I think for Flow pages we would really need a native presentation in the app to do anything beyond a read-only experience. There's an API for that.(TM)[4][5] But again, even a read-only experience is better than none.
Cheers, Bernd
[1] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/197851 [2] In app (enwiki) search for "Wikipedia talk:Flow/Developer test page" or open https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Flow/Developer_test_page [3] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/226480 [4] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Flow/Architecture/API [5] https://www.mediawiki.org/w/api.php?action=help&modules=flow
On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 4:57 PM, Sage Ross sage@ragesoss.com wrote:
I agree that read-only access to talk pages from the app will be a great improvement, even without editing. Even if I can't fully respond while on my mobile device, I want to at least be able to see the discussions. My current workflow frequently involves manually searching for the talk page in the app. And most talk pages are actually quite readable.
-Sage
On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 3:52 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com wrote:
for savvy readers they offer useful commentary about what's on (or off) the page and why.
Yes. And this doesn't require any special magic: wikitext pages are
equally
ready to be read whether they are in namespace 1 or in namespace 0.
Nemo
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