Hoi, Will these messages be available at the Beta-wiki ? Thanks, GerardM

Rob Church schreef:

Within the next fortnight, I plan to commit a set of changes which will allow the multiple-language internationalisation of extensions I've written, including:

• BadImage
• GiveRollback
• Makebot
• NewestPages
• Patroller
• ProfileMonitor
• UsernameBlacklist

It's quite simple to provide a translation for these; reading one of the .i18n files will make it quite clear how. I use the same base mechanism as other translated extensions, but with trivial differences in how the translations are read out before feeding them into MediaWiki; this allows me to keep most of the extensions backwards compatible, where appropriate, which was one reason I didn't like the method that's been used before.

You are, of course, quite welcome (and encouraged) to provide translations for these extensions, and to post patches on BugZilla or pester an existing committer to add them.

If I change the semantics or handling of a message in English during an update, or I change, e.g. the parameters passed to it in an incompatible manner, then I'll comment out the translations. This will cause the fallback language to be used so that the code continues to *work*, but to be honest, I don't envision making huge changes to existing extension code; I'm more likely to *add* something.

Cheers,

Rob Church

Rob Church schreef:

On 05/12/06, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:

...

Hoi, Will these messages be available at the Beta-wiki ?

Beta wiki management is nothing to do with me. :)

Rob Church

Hoi, You may want to consider it. For me it is an ideal place to translate; there is a clear path to getting the messages translated and I am not aware how else it can be done with similar efficiency. Thanks, GerardM

On 05/12/06, Berto 'd Sera albertoserra@ukr.net wrote:

Well, many translators DO use Betawiki. Personally, I will not use anything that is out of it, just because making a double development path would be absolutely anti-economical, sorry :) I hope we will try and keep a consistent and consolidated way to address problems, instead of growing a jungle of conflicting standards. A lot of languages are short with translators "as it is", why should we make this lack even worse? Pls, use Betawiki. But then maybe you just meant you do not know how to use it, did you?

I don't even understand what the original request *meant*. I explained above that I was going to make it possible to translate extensions I've written. I'm out of touch with the current uses of Betawiki with respect to how you people generate the messages, but to be honest, that isn't really my end of things...it's up to the i18n team, as I fondly think of all our volunteers, to decide how they want to work.

Rob Church

On 05/12/06, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:

You are the one who wants to have something translated. The question is therefore how we get this done. You do not really make it possible to translate your software if it does not become part of an environment where this is done effectively. And I can do without the sarcasm "fondly" indeed.

Now, there's where there's a difference. See, I don't *care* if no one translates it. I would *like* people to do so, but the software works fine without 30 odd language versions.

I've made it possible to provide localisation for the software in a fairly standard method. I'm aware of no special steps I need to take now...what I do know is that there's no longer scope for people to *bitch* at me 'cause my code didn't allow more than one localisation to be provided out of box.

Rob Church

On 05/12/06, Berto 'd Sera albertoserra@ukr.net wrote:

There no such thing as a *fairly* standard method. Killing the Queen is a fairly standard method to gain political power, nevertheless people do use elections. So pls do not invent your *own* standards, no matter how fair you rate them. Standards are already there, and developers are fondly welcome in following them. I know we all work for free, but this is not a reason to waste other people time (i.e. money).

I think somewhere the thread detached itself into another section, and something I wrote was misinterpreted.

I'm not saying you can't use Betawiki; far from it; you choose however you like to organise translations, at your own will. I can't *force* people to provide translations, and I can't *force* people to use one method or another for doing something. "Standard" referred to how the translations end up being patched into the extension; it's extremely simple and not totally dissimilar to how many other extensions are done. The only differences are there for (in my opinion) extra sanity and efficiency, and more importantly (to me) backwards compatibility.

If Nikerabbit would like to add these things to the arsenal of stuff he generously provides at Betawiki, so that they may be collaboratively localised, then I'm certainly not going to say no, but it's not anything to do with me.

Rob Church

Hoi, I am busy as it is, Berto is busy as it is. Both Berto and I are willing to spend our time on doing the occasional translation; it is mainly maintaining what is already there. Your idea of the "usual way" may be usual for developers it is not for us. It is a lot more work. To put the problem in perspective, there are currently 250 languages for our projects. All of these consist of one or more projects. This means that what is actually the standard way; by translating on the project is a massive loss of time. It means that only on projects were someone did translate a message you will find a translation. It does not scale and, it is simply not good enough.

It has nothing to do with Rob, it has nothing to do with Nikerabbit, it is simply not good enough.

Now, what needs doing to get this sorted. We have discussed with Nikerabbit that we need better support for the Betawiki functionality. As a consequence he has started work on modularising the special functionality of Betawiki and, we discussed that it might be best to integrate this with the incubator wiki. The motivation is that this is where much of the work is done for new projects before they are going life happens. It is therefore instant gratification when messages are localised and, this is a powerful motivator.

Well, I hope this is also clear enough :) Please let us know what more needs doing to get a *solution* because the current situation is not good enough.

Thanks, GerardM

helix84 schreef:

Hello, I'm writing to hopefully make things clear for everyone :)

The standard way to do translation is to submit patches to central Subversion repository, which is where up-to-date version of MediaWiki lives. Rob made his extension available in the repository, so you can download it from there and have it commited back there. Now there are several ways ho to accomplish the commit. Most of us can't do it, because we're not developers, therefore we don't have write-access. We need to ask one of the developers. The usual way would be to submit a request using Bugzilla, attaching the translated file (usually a patch for it). Other way is to contact a developer directly, i.e. using IRC or e-mail.

Now the most convenient way for _translators_ is to do the translations on Betawiki, because it provides a convenient interface. We don't have to mess with .php files and patches. Nikerabbit, who runs Betawiki and who is a developer, will do that for us.

Now to the first question - "Will these messages be available at the Beta-wiki ?". The answer is - no, for now, it won't. The reason is, that Nikerabbit is for now not willing to mess with extensions, which are separate pieces of software from MediaWiki. At least that's what me told me last time I asked. You have to ask him this question to get a qualified answer. Rob Church has nothing to do with that. Nikerabbit runs betawiki.

You can still do the translation the usual way, though. Download i18n files for an extension from Subversion. You can use the web interface ( http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/extensions/ ), though it may sometimes screw up encoding. Then make your translation and file a new request at bugzilla ( http://bugzilla.mediawiki.org/ ), where you attach the updated file.

So please, translators, don't blame Rob Church that he doesn't know how we do translations. And please, Rob, don't blame translators that they have no idea how software development works. We're cooperating here! :)

If there's something that i didn't put clearly enough, please, ask. ~~helix84

Rob Church schreef:

On 06/12/06, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:

...

It has nothing to do with Rob, it has nothing to do with Nikerabbit, it is simply not good enough.

Hoi, Well actually, I asked if the messages that you need translating would be available in Betawiki. What I got from you was not pleasant.

I think translators deserve as much respect as developers do. When you think of this as "hijacking a threat", sorry it was applicable to what you announced; a whole set of applications that need translation. Not doing this in an efficient way is both inefficient and it will lead to poor results. It is a waste of time and the results will be as a result of a poor environment for translators. There is a good environment, it just needs to be used.

Translators are willing to translate when the effort is maximised so that the cost will be as little as possible. This is not bickering, this is making sure that we get the best job done possible.

Thanks, GerardM

So there was no reason for the rudeness and ranting, other than that I was a convenient target? That is also unacceptable.

I do not spend time considering new features, bug fixes and extensions, and making sure that other people are able to add translations, to benefit a bunch of users who we know are irritable, ungrateful and at times, counterproductive, to be screamed at because I didn't quite agree with one person's implementation of something.

If there's a problem with the current mechanism via which translations are *generated*, then raise that as a separate issue; it can happen on this list - that's what it's here for.

However, hijacking a thread in which I set out quite a reasonable explanation of what I was planning to do in order to wax lyrical about how shitty the system is is totally inappropriate.

You'll find that nothing is ever "good enough" in open source development unless someone starts flashing cash about. We have to make the best of what we have, and we have to work together to positively produce something to make that better.

I suspect we've had enough bickering to last this list several months. I suggest the developers return to developing, and the translators return to translating, and remember that those "titles" or roles are self-appointed and subject to change.

Rob Church _______________________________________________ Mediawiki-i18n mailing list Mediawiki-i18n@mail.wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-i18n

Gerard, everyone here is a volunteer and everyone has to do something apart from wiki to earn for a living, so everyone is busy, too. Please, remember this. You won't solve a problem by complaining. Try to criticize constructively. First step is formulating your needs. But you can't just throw work on someone else's shoulders. Try to keep that in mind.

And I didn't say Nikerabbit wouldn't take care of extensions, too. But you have to ask him. I asked him about six months ago when there were little core translations finished and focus was needed on that. That may have changed.

I'd like to suggest you one thing, although you may not want to try it - give Subversion a chance. Subversion is quite simple, but it does need a little time and patience to get used to, like any other software. Subversion isn't just for programmers. It's here to help, not to complicate things. And it does help, that's why it's popular. If you don't want to, I understand, but the problem remains unsolved. You may get upset about it and try to solve it yourself in a way that suits you. That's how open source works.

Rob, please, you don't get bitter because of one person who lost his nerve. There is a problem which may need solution, or at least an explanation. As I see it, an ordinary translator doesn't know how things work, that's why you didn't understand each other. I'll try to make a howto summing up everything about localization. We could then make it also a FAQ for this mailing list.

And everyone remember: Stay cool when the editing gets hot Assume good faith

We're all volunteers working toward the same goals.

~~helix84