What about letting Legal, CA/SS and tech figure that out among themselves? Even with that 'policy' I imagine there are always exceptions possible (i.e. a court order). Maybe this is one of them. I do agree with Rob that it shouldn't be his job to figure out if this shouldbe one - legal is in a much better position to determine that. 

Lodewijk

2016-06-20 23:39 GMT+02:00 Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com>:

Hi Rob,

The last time that we had major problems with a list scrub, that request also came through Legal. It did not go well. My understanding is that Community Advocacy (now Support and Safety) took the position that Legal should not have requested a list scrub, and it would not happen again. I think that Legal and Ops should consult with James before there is a change of practice.

Thanks,
Pine

Pine

On Jun 20, 2016 13:11, "Rob Halsell" <rhalsell@wikimedia.org> wrote:

I've never been aware they had been halted, only that we have a fairly high bar on what we remove from the lists.  This is due to the many concerns already raised on this thread, and in the past.  They include (but are not limited to) mailman routing downtime/delays, archive rebuilding index changes, and the fact that once something is on the internet, its never really gone.  (Removal from archives doesn't mean removal from archive mirrors or any actual emails.)  While those concerns make the bar quite high, they do not mean we simply don't remove data.

If anyone is aware of documentation that states otherwise, please let me know!  The only documentation I am aware of is on wikitech:  https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailman#Remove_a_message_from_the_mailing_list_archives & https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Remove_a_message_from_mailing_list_archive

Operations does not undergo list scrubs lightly, as it involves the stopping of mail processing for lists, including rebuild time of affected archives.  In this case,the request was filtered through WMF legal and then legal requested it from operations.  This request was filtered by both the legal department and operations management.

I've requested that we delay the scrub until post Wikimania.  I have not received any feedback yet from legal regarding the timeline.  I'll post back to this list regarding the resolution of the schedule.

I hope that helps clear things up!

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 12:41 PM, Richard Ames <richard@ames.id.au> wrote:

Yes.... we have been through this before and I thought resolved not to do it.

It only draws attention to that which is 'scrubbed' as it still exists
in many public places and invites the comparison of the still public
source and the scrubbed source....

Richard.

On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 5:30 AM, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Rob,
>
> I thought that privacy-related scrubs of mailing list archives had been
> halted, given (1) the many problems that they have caused in the past and
> (2) that once info is sent to a public list it is likely to be archived
> publicly in places outside of WMF control and therefore the usefulness of
> these wipes is doubtful.
>
> James, you and I have discussed this issue previously. Can you please
> comment?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Pine
>
> On Jun 20, 2016 09:38, "Rob Halsell" <rhalsell@wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>
>> I already got a few messages pointing out that taking down the wikimania
>> mailing list the week of folks traveling there may not be ideal for
>> communication!
>>
>> I'm working with legal to see if I can push this request for scrub to next
>> week.
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 9:28 AM, Rob Halsell <rhalsell@wikimedia.org>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> List Admins,
>>>
>>> Please note that I'll be stopping mailman on 2016-06-21 from 16:00 to
>>> 18:00 UTC for some privacy scrubbing of list archives.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, mailman has to be stopped to prevent corruption during the
>>> archive rebuild for the affected list(s).  I hope not to use the full 2 hour
>>> window, but cannot be certain.
>>>
>>> Once the work ends and mailman is restarted, all unsent/queued messages
>>> will be processed for delivery.
>>>
>>> Work is documented on https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T138228
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --
>>> Rob Halsell
>>> Operations Engineer
>>> Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
>>> E-Mail: rhalsell@wikimedia.org
>>> Key fingerprint = CB1F C7E7 0FF8 5DB2 6820  9C7E 75ED 14C7 0245 D22A
>>> Office: 415.839.6885 x6620
>>> Fax: 415.882.0495
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Rob Halsell
>> Operations Engineer
>> Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
>> E-Mail: rhalsell@wikimedia.org
>> Key fingerprint = CB1F C7E7 0FF8 5DB2 6820  9C7E 75ED 14C7 0245 D22A
>> Office: 415.839.6885 x6620
>> Fax: 415.882.0495
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Listadmins mailing list
>> Listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Listadmins mailing list
> Listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins
>

--

Rob Halsell
Operations Engineer
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
E-Mail: rhalsell@wikimedia.org
Key fingerprint = CB1F C7E7 0FF8 5DB2 6820  9C7E 75ED 14C7 0245 D22A
Office: 415.839.6885 x6620
Fax: 415.882.0495

_______________________________________________
Listadmins mailing list
Listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins

_______________________________________________
Listadmins mailing list
Listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins

_______________________________________________
Listadmins mailing list
Listadmins@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/listadmins