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Serbocroatian

Shan Wikivoyage

Request Approval of Shan...

MF-Warburg

11 Jan 2022 11 Jan '22

12:17 p.m.

A user has asked about starting a new project (namely Wikivoyage) in the Serbo-Croatian language. I see no problems with the eligibility of such a project, does anyone? (One would have to wonder about the ISO code, as it's ISO 639-3 hbs; but we already have Wikipedia and Wiktionary under "sh" as a deprecated code in 639-1, but that's a different issue).

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Gerard Meijssen

11 Jan 11 Jan

1:51 p.m.

Hoi, The problem will be that we open a can of worms when we go this route. Arguably there is no such language as Croatian and Serbian became separate languages.. The question would be who is its public. Thanks, Gerard On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 at 05:18, MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com> wrote:

A user has asked about starting a new project (namely Wikivoyage) in the Serbo-Croatian language. I see no problems with the eligibility of such a project, does anyone? (One would have to wonder about the ISO code, as it's ISO 639-3 hbs; but we already have Wikipedia and Wiktionary under "sh" as a deprecated code in 639-1, but that's a different issue). _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list -- langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org

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Antony Green

4:03 p.m.

I agree that Serbo-Croatian Wikivoyage is technically eligible, and as far as I can tell there is no Wikivoyage project in Bosnian, Croatian, or Serbian for a potential Serbo-Croatian Wikivoyage to compete with. Would be outside our jurisdiction to say "If we create a Serbo-Croatian Wikivoyage, there won't be Wikivoyages in any of the languages included under the Serbo-Croatian umbrella"? Antony Am 2022-01-11 um 06:51 schrieb Gerard Meijssen:

Hoi, The problem will be that we open a can of worms when we go this route. Arguably there is no such language as Croatian and Serbian became separate languages.. The question would be who is its public. Thanks, Gerard On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 at 05:18, MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com> wrote: A user has asked about starting a new project (namely Wikivoyage) in the Serbo-Croatian language. I see no problems with the eligibility of such a project, does anyone? (One would have to wonder about the ISO code, as it's ISO 639-3 hbs; but we already have Wikipedia and Wiktionary under "sh" as a deprecated code in 639-1, but that's a different issue). _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list -- langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list --langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email tolangcom-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org

-- Dr. Antony Green Rudolf-Seiffert-Str. 31 WE 1703 10369 Berlin, Germany E-Mail:toniogreen@web.de Mobile: +49-176-82295920

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Amir E. Aharoni

4:58 p.m.

"Who is its public" is a pretty easy question, actually: Anyone who speaks any of these four languages is its public. Unless someone convincingly proves the opposite, readers don't care whether it's "sr", "hr", sh", "bs", or "hbs" (or "cnr" ;). I do think that given the current state of the software, a more practical solution would be to have one project in sr that would be more focused on Cyrillic, and another in hr, sh, or hbs, that would be more focused on Latin, but this still means that an hbs or sh is eligible. I'm fine with both codes. "hbs" is cleaner according to the standards, but requires a bit of work, although it's really tiny, and it can be an opportunity to make the converter more generic. "sh" doesn't require any additional work, but in the current configuration, it doesn't have the converter enabled. -- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬ ‫בתאריך יום ג׳, 11 בינו׳ 2022 ב-7:55 מאת ‪Gerard Meijssen‬‏ <‪ gerard.meijssen@gmail.com‬‏>:‬

Hoi, The problem will be that we open a can of worms when we go this route. Arguably there is no such language as Croatian and Serbian became separate languages.. The question would be who is its public. Thanks, Gerard On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 at 05:18, MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com> wrote:

A user has asked about starting a new project (namely Wikivoyage) in the Serbo-Croatian language. I see no problems with the eligibility of such a project, does anyone? (One would have to wonder about the ISO code, as it's ISO 639-3 hbs; but we already have Wikipedia and Wiktionary under "sh" as a deprecated code in 639-1, but that's a different issue). _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list -- langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org

_______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list -- langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org

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Amir E. Aharoni

5:04 p.m.

Yes, we should not repeat the mistake of creating three Wikipedias in essentially the same content language (hr / bs / sh). It's desirable to merge these Wikipedias, and theoretically it's even possible, but practically, it probably won't happen soon. (Comment 1: As I mentioned in another email, I do think that Cyrillic Serbian should be separate, *given the current state of the language converter software*, which is quite good at showing different scripts to the readers, but doesn't allow storing different scripts in the database, which creates inconvenience for editors. Ideally, it should be possible to *edit* in whatever script that is convenient to the editor, but it will require a lot of work.) (Comment 2: All varieties should be allowed as different *user interface* languages, but it's a separate question anyway.) -- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬ ‫בתאריך יום ג׳, 11 בינו׳ 2022 ב-10:20 מאת ‪Antony Green‬‏ <‪ toniogreen@web.de‬‏>:‬

I agree that Serbo-Croatian Wikivoyage is technically eligible, and as far as I can tell there is no Wikivoyage project in Bosnian, Croatian, or Serbian for a potential Serbo-Croatian Wikivoyage to compete with. Would be outside our jurisdiction to say "If we create a Serbo-Croatian Wikivoyage, there won't be Wikivoyages in any of the languages included under the Serbo-Croatian umbrella"? Antony Am 2022-01-11 um 06:51 schrieb Gerard Meijssen: Hoi, The problem will be that we open a can of worms when we go this route. Arguably there is no such language as Croatian and Serbian became separate languages.. The question would be who is its public. Thanks, Gerard On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 at 05:18, MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com> wrote:

A user has asked about starting a new project (namely Wikivoyage) in the Serbo-Croatian language. I see no problems with the eligibility of such a project, does anyone? (One would have to wonder about the ISO code, as it's ISO 639-3 hbs; but we already have Wikipedia and Wiktionary under "sh" as a deprecated code in 639-1, but that's a different issue). _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list -- langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org

_______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list -- langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org -- Dr. Antony Green Rudolf-Seiffert-Str. 31 WE 1703 10369 Berlin, Germany E-Mail: toniogreen(a)web.de Mobile: +49-176-82295920 _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list -- langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org

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zblace＠mi2.hr

12 Jan 12 Jan

4:54 a.m.

Sorry to intercept 'late' across multiple email replies in telegraphic way ()... Yes I would be interested to experiment with test instance in incubator of HBS Wikivoyage or Wikivodič (local name). @Gerard: I do not get the can of worms metaphore... As for public, it is cca 20+ milion people that can understand HBS languages. Fragmantation into small communities over rigid neo-national language standards led to issues. This could be small experiment in opposite direction, at no risk. @Amir: switching script is an issue indeed and I think your idea of separate entities would be fairly easy to accept by most people from the region as Cyrilic is only close to same use as Latin script in Serbia. As for if readers care I would agree many do not, while those that do a fewer and would care least with HBS. Wikivoyage is likely less demanding and complex language (for sure less than Wikipedia and Wiktionary) to do this in acceptable way. Best Z. Blace

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MF-Warburg

18 Jan 18 Jan

12:02 a.m.

Given all the positive reactions, I will mark the request as eligible. We should just have clarity on the ISO code to use for now on Incubator. Amir, you said using sh doesn't require any additional work on the script converter - I think that would be a very good reason for just using sh. (Although at https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wy/sh/A I can't see a conversion option atm). Am Di., 11. Jan. 2022 um 21:58 Uhr schrieb <zblace(a)mi2.hr>hr>:

Sorry to intercept 'late' across multiple email replies in telegraphic way ()... Yes I would be interested to experiment with test instance in incubator of HBS Wikivoyage or Wikivodič (local name). @Gerard: I do not get the can of worms metaphore... As for public, it is cca 20+ milion people that can understand HBS languages. Fragmantation into small communities over rigid neo-national language standards led to issues. This could be small experiment in opposite direction, at no risk. @Amir: switching script is an issue indeed and I think your idea of separate entities would be fairly easy to accept by most people from the region as Cyrilic is only close to same use as Latin script in Serbia. As for if readers care I would agree many do not, while those that do a fewer and would care least with HBS. Wikivoyage is likely less demanding and complex language (for sure less than Wikipedia and Wiktionary) to do this in acceptable way. Best Z. Blace _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list -- langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org

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Željko Blaće

12:07 a.m.

I would actually strongly suggest HBS as it would render project in sync with contemporary standard and macro language concept (adding notion of Bosnian), rather than depricated SH and historic burden it caries in eyes of many (maybe even mayority of Wikipediands from the region). Best Z. Blace On Monday, January 17, 2022, MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com> wrote:

Given all the positive reactions, I will mark the request as eligible. We should just have clarity on the ISO code to use for now on Incubator. Amir, you said using sh doesn't require any additional work on the script converter - I think that would be a very good reason for just using sh. (Although at https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wy/sh/A I can't see a conversion option atm). Am Di., 11. Jan. 2022 um 21:58 Uhr schrieb <zblace(a)mi2.hr>hr>:

Sorry to intercept 'late' across multiple email replies in telegraphic way ()... Yes I would be interested to experiment with test instance in incubator of HBS Wikivoyage or Wikivodič (local name). @Gerard: I do not get the can of worms metaphore... As for public, it is cca 20+ milion people that can understand HBS languages. Fragmantation into small communities over rigid neo-national language standards led to issues. This could be small experiment in opposite direction, at no risk. @Amir: switching script is an issue indeed and I think your idea of separate entities would be fairly easy to accept by most people from the region as Cyrilic is only close to same use as Latin script in Serbia. As for if readers care I would agree many do not, while those that do a fewer and would care least with HBS. Wikivoyage is likely less demanding and complex language (for sure less than Wikipedia and Wiktionary) to do this in acceptable way. Best Z. Blace _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list -- langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org

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Željko Blaće

20 Jan 20 Jan

2:23 a.m.

I see listing of proposal is still in Discussion on https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages#Wikivoyage also I am confused over what is being done by who? https://incubator.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wy/sh/A&action=history Should I create Wy/hbs myself? https://incubator.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?action=edit&title=Wy/hbs&am… On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 5:07 PM Željko Blaće <zblace(a)mi2.hr> wrote:

I would actually strongly suggest HBS as it would render project in sync with contemporary standard and macro language concept (adding notion of Bosnian), rather than depricated SH and historic burden it caries in eyes of many (maybe even mayority of Wikipediands from the region). Best Z. Blace On Monday, January 17, 2022, MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com> wrote: > Given all the positive reactions, I will mark the request as eligible. We > should just have clarity on the ISO code to use for now on Incubator. Amir, > you said using sh doesn't require any additional work on the script > converter - I think that would be a very good reason for just using sh. > (Although at https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wy/sh/A I can't see a > conversion option atm). > > Am Di., 11. Jan. 2022 um 21:58 Uhr schrieb <zblace(a)mi2.hr>hr>: > >> Sorry to intercept 'late' across multiple email replies in telegraphic >> way ()... >> >> Yes I would be interested to experiment with test instance in incubator >> of HBS Wikivoyage or Wikivodič (local name). >> >> @Gerard: I do not get the can of worms metaphore... >> As for public, it is cca 20+ milion people that can understand HBS >> languages. >> >> Fragmantation into small communities over rigid neo-national language >> standards led to issues. >> This could be small experiment in opposite direction, at no risk. >> >> @Amir: switching script is an issue indeed and I think your idea of >> separate entities would be fairly easy to accept by most people from the >> region as Cyrilic is only close to same use as Latin script in Serbia. >> As for if readers care I would agree many do not, while those that do a >> fewer and would care least with HBS. >> >> Wikivoyage is likely less demanding and complex language (for sure less >> than Wikipedia and Wiktionary) to do this in acceptable way. >> >> Best Z. Blace >> _______________________________________________ >> Langcom mailing list -- langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> >

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MF-Warburg

24 Jan 24 Jan

10:18 a.m.

I have marked the request as eligible. You can go ahead and create content on Incubator. I activated editing for the code hbs - as there were no objections to it. Am Mi., 19. Jan. 2022 um 19:23 Uhr schrieb Željko Blaće <zblace(a)mi2.hr>hr>:

I see listing of proposal is still in Discussion on https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages#Wikivoyage also I am confused over what is being done by who? https://incubator.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wy/sh/A&action=history Should I create Wy/hbs myself? https://incubator.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?action=edit&title=Wy/hbs&am… On Mon, Jan 17, 2022 at 5:07 PM Željko Blaće <zblace(a)mi2.hr> wrote: > I would actually strongly suggest HBS as it would render project in sync > with contemporary standard and macro language concept (adding notion of > Bosnian), rather than depricated SH and historic burden it caries in eyes > of many (maybe even mayority of Wikipediands from the region). > > Best Z. Blace > > On Monday, January 17, 2022, MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com> wrote: > >> Given all the positive reactions, I will mark the request as eligible. >> We should just have clarity on the ISO code to use for now on Incubator. >> Amir, you said using sh doesn't require any additional work on the script >> converter - I think that would be a very good reason for just using sh. >> (Although at https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wy/sh/A I can't see a >> conversion option atm). >> >> Am Di., 11. Jan. 2022 um 21:58 Uhr schrieb <zblace(a)mi2.hr>hr>: >> >>> Sorry to intercept 'late' across multiple email replies in telegraphic >>> way ()... >>> >>> Yes I would be interested to experiment with test instance in incubator >>> of HBS Wikivoyage or Wikivodič (local name). >>> >>> @Gerard: I do not get the can of worms metaphore... >>> As for public, it is cca 20+ milion people that can understand HBS >>> languages. >>> >>> Fragmantation into small communities over rigid neo-national language >>> standards led to issues. >>> This could be small experiment in opposite direction, at no risk. >>> >>> @Amir: switching script is an issue indeed and I think your idea of >>> separate entities would be fairly easy to accept by most people from the >>> region as Cyrilic is only close to same use as Latin script in Serbia. >>> As for if readers care I would agree many do not, while those that do a >>> fewer and would care least with HBS. >>> >>> Wikivoyage is likely less demanding and complex language (for sure less >>> than Wikipedia and Wiktionary) to do this in acceptable way. >>> >>> Best Z. Blace >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Langcom mailing list -- langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org >>> >>

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Amir E. Aharoni
Antony Green
Gerard Meijssen
MF-Warburg
zblace＠mi2.hr
Željko Blaće