Forwarded from on-wiki. It was posted there on Friday 2 March at about 18:30 UTC.
“Dear LangCom members,
I am writing to you with intention to clarify some things regarding the Montenegrin Wikipedia project. I am aware that there is a lack of support for this project to be allowed, and the main argument is that it is a “variety” of Serbian language, claimed even by some members here. I’d like to remind you that not a single serious institution claims this to be true, they all list it as a member of Serbo-Croatian macro language, not a part of Serbian (an important distinction).
Next, some question the use of two added letters all while claiming that they can simply be replaced with sj, zj. As per Montenegrin orthography, this is not true, I can explain everything in detail on the discussion page for anyone interested in this, please, be free to ping me there. And on the same page plenty of examples have been given to show how these letters are in fact used. Also, alongside a few other users, I have shown some clear differences between Ijekavian Serbian and Montenegrin (let me remind you that ~90% of articles in Serbian Wikipedia are written in Ekavian standard, not Ijekavian). The most important feature of Montenegrin is jekavian iotation, not present in any other SC language, and this means that it is impossible to follow Montenegrin standard if we were to write Serbian (or Bosnian, Croatian) Wikipedia.
And let’s not forget the reason that most members here wish to ignore, but sadly, due to historical and political reasons, cannot. Serious NPOV violations are present on Serbian Wikipedia on literally every article regarding Montenegro (and lots of other political, historical topics related to other countries and people but it is not relevant to Montenegrin Wikipedia right now). I have listed quite a few examples of that in discussion page and even some of reverting changes that were made to regain NPOV, ping me for all of that as well if you cannot find it on that cluttered page. Politics do in fact play a big part in all of this, and explain why Montenegrin community is, besides all the reasons listed above, also uninterested to contribute to such projects, and there is a clear intention to write neutral articles retaining NPOV among our community, not to create propaganda-style articles that can sadly be found on all of these other projects.
Some propose using Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia. The very existence of it is harshly criticized amongst most of Serbian, Croatian community, as they find it unnecessary and are often feeling angry at SC community merely copying their articles, as claimed by some users. I won’t argue about necessity of SC Wikipedia, but I felt that this is a good introduction for my main reason why Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia is not a good solution for Montenegrin either.
Very large number of articles have parts directly copied from Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian Wikipedias, resulting in a huge mess on articles, with a single sentence being written half in Croatian, half in Serbian, which is utterly confusing for the reader, switching between dialects, word forms, grammar rules etc. In the discussion page I’ve shown how different a Montenegrin Wikipedia article would be from an article in Serbo-Croatian to Mr Amir Aharoni, please, be free to check that as well, and I can do that for any article you want me to, so you have a side by side comparison, just like the one I made there. A very large number of Croatian words is unheard of and unknown in Montenegrin, to the point where you simply cannot understand whatever you are reading about (scientific topics to the point of unintelligiblity!). And Croatian is vastly dominant in Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia (alongside those Ekavian Serbian parts in the middle of a single sentence). You can agree that this is not a good ground for developing a serious project written in Montenegrin language.
Finally, I am aware that these other projects are grandfathered, but it doesn’t change the fact that they do exist, and Montenegrin community sees this as very unfair (to say the least) and really feels that based an all of the things listed above, and this fact that it’s the only SC variety without it’s own Wikipedia, it does deserve creation of it’s own project.
Sincerely, Luka (Wiki username: Lujki).”
Sent from Outlookhttp://aka.ms/weboutlook
To convince the ISO 639 RA that Western Armenian was different from Eastern Armenian, I did not write a series of anecdotes making claims and saying “I can provide info if you want”. I worked with linguistic experts and produced a document demonstrating clearly the genuine linguistic differences.
No such document has ever been produced for Montenegrin.
Michael
On 5 Mar 2018, at 23:25, Steven White Koala19890@hotmail.com wrote:
Forwarded from on-wiki. It was posted there on Friday 2 March at about 18:30 UTC.
“Dear LangCom members,
I am writing to you with intention to clarify some things regarding the Montenegrin Wikipedia project. I am aware that there is a lack of support for this project to be allowed, and the main argument is that it is a “variety” of Serbian language, claimed even by some members here. I’d like to remind you that not a single serious institution claims this to be true, they all list it as a member of Serbo-Croatian macro language, not a part of Serbian (an important distinction).
Next, some question the use of two added letters all while claiming that they can simply be replaced with sj, zj. As per Montenegrin orthography, this is not true, I can explain everything in detail on the discussion page for anyone interested in this, please, be free to ping me there. And on the same page plenty of examples have been given to show how these letters are in fact used. Also, alongside a few other users, I have shown some clear differences between Ijekavian Serbian and Montenegrin (let me remind you that ~90% of articles in Serbian Wikipedia are written in Ekavian standard, not Ijekavian). The most important feature of Montenegrin is jekavian iotation, not present in any other SC language, and this means that it is impossible to follow Montenegrin standard if we were to write Serbian (or Bosnian, Croatian) Wikipedia.
And let’s not forget the reason that most members here wish to ignore, but sadly, due to historical and political reasons, cannot. Serious NPOV violations are present on Serbian Wikipedia on literally every article regarding Montenegro (and lots of other political, historical topics related to other countries and people but it is not relevant to Montenegrin Wikipedia right now). I have listed quite a few examples of that in discussion page and even some of reverting changes that were made to regain NPOV, ping me for all of that as well if you cannot find it on that cluttered page. Politics do in fact play a big part in all of this, and explain why Montenegrin community is, besides all the reasons listed above, also uninterested to contribute to such projects, and there is a clear intention to write neutral articles retaining NPOV among our community, not to create propaganda-style articles that can sadly be found on all of these other projects.
Some propose using Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia. The very existence of it is harshly criticized amongst most of Serbian, Croatian community, as they find it unnecessary and are often feeling angry at SC community merely copying their articles, as claimed by some users. I won’t argue about necessity of SC Wikipedia, but I felt that this is a good introduction for my main reason why Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia is not a good solution for Montenegrin either.
Very large number of articles have parts directly copied from Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian Wikipedias, resulting in a huge mess on articles, with a single sentence being written half in Croatian, half in Serbian, which is utterly confusing for the reader, switching between dialects, word forms, grammar rules etc. In the discussion page I’ve shown how different a Montenegrin Wikipedia article would be from an article in Serbo-Croatian to Mr Amir Aharoni, please, be free to check that as well, and I can do that for any article you want me to, so you have a side by side comparison, just like the one I made there. A very large number of Croatian words is unheard of and unknown in Montenegrin, to the point where you simply cannot understand whatever you are reading about (scientific topics to the point of unintelligiblity!). And Croatian is vastly dominant in Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia (alongside those Ekavian Serbian parts in the middle of a single sentence). You can agree that this is not a good ground for developing a serious project written in Montenegrin language.
Finally, I am aware that these other projects are grandfathered, but it doesn’t change the fact that they do exist, and Montenegrin community sees this as very unfair (to say the least) and really feels that based an all of the things listed above, and this fact that it’s the only SC variety without it’s own Wikipedia, it does deserve creation of it’s own project.
Sincerely, Luka (Wiki username: Lujki).”
Sent from Outlook _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom