Reviving this discussion from a few months back.

There is now also a request on translatewiki to enable localization in Rajasthani, under the code "raj", which is a macro-language.

In November, Satdeep supported marking the proposal for the Rajasthani Wikipedia as eligible. If I interpret his other response correctly, he also recommended marking Hadauti ineligible and recommending its merging with Rajasthani.

If that's the interpretation, then I guess that it's OK to also enable raj for localization on translatewiki.

This is possibly sensible, but there are two issues: 1. It would be great if someone who is more knowledgeable about India would confirm it before we go on. In particular, it would be great at least to check all the external sources given on https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Rajasth... . It would be even better to find more sources that confirm it, or maybe even sources that reject it.

2. According to Ethnologue, at least one individual language under the raj macrolanguage is written using the Arabic script: Gujari ( https://www.ethnologue.com/language/gju/ ). I cannot find a request for it now, but it's spoken by more than a million people, so there may be a request in the future, and if it happens, it should probably be in a separate domain. Would it be OK to have one Wikipedia in a macro-language and another in an individual language? I think that it's OK in practice, but I do ask for other committee members' confirmation.

-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

‫בתאריך שבת, 9 בנוב׳ 2024 ב-10:11 מאת ‪Satdeep Gill‬‏ <‪ satdeepgill@gmail.com‬‏>:‬

Hi all,

I wasn't aware about Hadauti before this but Rajasthani is well known. Given that there are books in Rajasthani and it is taught as a subject in the state of Rajasthan, I am more inclined towards *marking Rajasthani eligible* while Hadauti seems like a single person's effort and might be better suited to be a part of the broader Rajasthani Wikipedia.

Best Satdeep

On Wed, 30 Oct 2024 at 02:54, Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:

...

Hallo,

There are these two open requests:

1. hoj:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Hadauti 2. raj: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Rajasth...

raj is a macro language code, and hoj is one of the languages that belong to it.

I don't know these languages, and I'm not sure what to do about them.

I sent talk page messages to people who contributed to them, asking whether they actually plan to contribute to them more, and whether the current incubator articles in them look related.

Until we get any substantial replies, I recommend marking the two requests as "Waiting".

-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬ _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list -- langcom@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-leave@lists.wikimedia.org

---

Langcom mailing list -- langcom@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-leave@lists.wikimedia.org

I researched it a bit more, and found another confusing issue.

There's the Rajasthani request: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Rajasth... https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/raj

It has a lot of activity recently.

There's the Hadothi / Hadauti request: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Hadauti https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/hoj

It had a bit of activity long ago, but is inactive now, and is marked as "waiting".

And there's also the Marwari request: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Marwari https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/rwr

It had some activity in the past, but isn't active recently (there were a few minor technical edits in Decemeber 2024, but it's not really article-writing activity).

It is marked as "eligible", and here begins the issue. Rajasthani and Marwari are *probably* kind of the same thing. Here's why I think like that it may be like that:

1. The English Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajasthani_languages says "The term Rajasthani is also used to refer to a literary language mostly based on Marwari." It refers to the book "The Indo-Aryan Languages" by Colin Masica. I found the book online, and it indeed says that.

2. At the discussion on translatewiki, where the Rajasthani language is requested ( https://translatewiki.net/wiki/Support#Request_to_enable_Rajasthani_(raj) ), there are several links to sites that demonstrate the language's usage.¹ I cannot read them, but for fun, I tried pasting them to Google Translate and to Claude.ai. Google Translate identified it as "Marwari" (with the code "mwr" appearing in the URL), and Claude.ai identifed it as "Rajasthani". (I should also mention that Google Translate doesn't specifically support "Rajasthani".) Of course, I don't trust either of those blindly, but it *may* be a sign that the languages are the same, or at least very similar.

Another issue is how language codes for Rajasthani and Marwari are defined in ISO 639 3: * raj ("Rajasthani") is a macro language, and none of its individual languages are named "Marwari": https://iso639-3.sil.org/code/raj * mwr ("Marwari") is a separate macro language: https://iso639-3.sil.org/code/mwr . One of its individual languages is called "Marwari (India)", and its code is rwr. Google Translate uses "mwr", and the "Marwari" requests on Meta uses "rwr".

For what it's worth, according to both Glottolog and Ethnologue, Marwari is part of the Rajasthani branch.

All of the above is just very basic information I could find. I don't know the languages. It's very hard for me to make a good decision here, and I need the committee's help. Ideally, if a Wikipedia is created, and the software is localized, it should be done in a language that is already at least somewhat standardized, and can be read by some people. The language code usage should follow practices on other websites, but the only website I saw that uses any of these codes is Google Translate, which uses mwr.

If we mark raj as eligible, and rwr is essentially the same language, then perhaps we should revoke the eligibility of rwr.

But these are just thoughts. I would really appreciate more thoughts from other members of the committee. Thank you!

¹ I have to comment that this is a very good thing in general. I wish that all the people who request new languages did that.

-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

‫בתאריך יום א׳, 6 באפר׳ 2025 ב-11:08 מאת ‪Amir E. Aharoni‬‏ <‪ amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il‬‏>:‬

... I should have included it earlier—please see the discussion about it translatewiki: https://translatewiki.net/wiki/Support#Request_to_enable_Rajasthani_(raj)

-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

‫בתאריך יום א׳, 6 באפר׳ 2025 ב-11:05 מאת ‪Amir E. Aharoni‬‏ <‪ amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il‬‏>:‬

...

Reviving this discussion from a few months back.

There is now also a request on translatewiki to enable localization in Rajasthani, under the code "raj", which is a macro-language.

In November, Satdeep supported marking the proposal for the Rajasthani Wikipedia as eligible. If I interpret his other response correctly, he also recommended marking Hadauti ineligible and recommending its merging with Rajasthani.

If that's the interpretation, then I guess that it's OK to also enable raj for localization on translatewiki.

This is possibly sensible, but there are two issues:

1. It would be great if someone who is more knowledgeable about India

would confirm it before we go on. In particular, it would be great at least to check all the external sources given on https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Rajasth... . It would be even better to find more sources that confirm it, or maybe even sources that reject it.

2. According to Ethnologue, at least one individual language under the

raj macrolanguage is written using the Arabic script: Gujari ( https://www.ethnologue.com/language/gju/ ). I cannot find a request for it now, but it's spoken by more than a million people, so there may be a request in the future, and if it happens, it should probably be in a separate domain. Would it be OK to have one Wikipedia in a macro-language and another in an individual language? I think that it's OK in practice, but I do ask for other committee members' confirmation.

-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

‫בתאריך שבת, 9 בנוב׳ 2024 ב-10:11 מאת ‪Satdeep Gill‬‏ <‪ satdeepgill@gmail.com‬‏>:‬

...

Hi all,

I wasn't aware about Hadauti before this but Rajasthani is well known. Given that there are books in Rajasthani and it is taught as a subject in the state of Rajasthan, I am more inclined towards *marking Rajasthani eligible* while Hadauti seems like a single person's effort and might be better suited to be a part of the broader Rajasthani Wikipedia.

Best Satdeep

On Wed, 30 Oct 2024 at 02:54, Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:

...

Hallo,

There are these two open requests:

1. hoj:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Hadauti 2. raj: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Rajasth...

raj is a macro language code, and hoj is one of the languages that belong to it.

I don't know these languages, and I'm not sure what to do about them.

I sent talk page messages to people who contributed to them, asking whether they actually plan to contribute to them more, and whether the current incubator articles in them look related.

Until we get any substantial replies, I recommend marking the two requests as "Waiting".

-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬ _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list -- langcom@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-leave@lists.wikimedia.org

---

Langcom mailing list -- langcom@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-leave@lists.wikimedia.org

Hi,

I think that we have a resolution.

We've just got a confirmation from a language expert that it's good to start from "Rajasthani" as the label and "raj" as the language code. I've forwarded an email to the private list.

-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

בתאריך יום ג׳, 6 במאי 2025, 04:20, מאת Satdeep Gill ‏<satdeepgill@gmail.com

:

There do seem to be conflicting statements around this that makes this quite a complex case. For instance, the Indian Academy of Letters has been giving an award to Rajasthani writers since 1974 but there is no information how it incorporates or doesn't incorporate the various languages within Rajasthani.

Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sahitya_Akademi_Award_winners_for_Raja... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sahitya_Akademi_Award_winners_for_Rajasthani

But on the other hand, the census of India provides separate data for Rajasthani and Marwari.(ref https://language.census.gov.in/eLanguageDivision_VirtualPath/LSI_Reports/pdf/5.pdf )

But, I checked the article about the state of Rajasthan in both the languages on the Incubator (raj https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/raj/%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%9C%E0%A4%B8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A5%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A8 and rwr https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/rwr/%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%9C%E0%A4%B8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A5%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A8) and I was able to read both of them fairly easily. The language doesn't seem vastly different. Nouns are bound to be the same given the same script but many other parts of speech are exactly the same while others have tiny differences. Same words are इण (this), है (is), भी (also), दियो (did). One slightly different word is रै in Rajasthani and रे in Marwari.

Obviously, there are several words which are there in just one text and not in the other but it seems like most of them are a writer's choice. As these are not translations of the exact same text, these differences seem to have appeared

I would have to agree with Amir that Rajasthani and Marwari are quite similar in the standard form that there should be one Rajasthani Wikipedia. This becomes also important in light of the recent research findings that others and I put together in our professional capacity ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Languages_Onboarding_Experiment_202...). Many wikis find it difficult to take the momentum forward after becoming a full-fledged wiki. So, we do need to be mindful, especially with Wikipedias where an active editing community is very much a necessity.

Best Satdeep

On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 at 21:03, Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:

...

I researched it a bit more, and found another confusing issue.

There's the Rajasthani request:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Rajasth... https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/raj

It has a lot of activity recently.

There's the Hadothi / Hadauti request:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Hadauti https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/hoj

It had a bit of activity long ago, but is inactive now, and is marked as "waiting".

And there's also the Marwari request:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Marwari https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/rwr

It had some activity in the past, but isn't active recently (there were a few minor technical edits in Decemeber 2024, but it's not really article-writing activity).

It is marked as "eligible", and here begins the issue. Rajasthani and Marwari are *probably* kind of the same thing. Here's why I think like that it may be like that:

1. The English Wikipedia article

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajasthani_languages says "The term Rajasthani is also used to refer to a literary language mostly based on Marwari." It refers to the book "The Indo-Aryan Languages" by Colin Masica. I found the book online, and it indeed says that.

2. At the discussion on translatewiki, where the Rajasthani language is

requested ( https://translatewiki.net/wiki/Support#Request_to_enable_Rajasthani_(raj) ), there are several links to sites that demonstrate the language's usage.¹ I cannot read them, but for fun, I tried pasting them to Google Translate and to Claude.ai. Google Translate identified it as "Marwari" (with the code "mwr" appearing in the URL), and Claude.ai identifed it as "Rajasthani". (I should also mention that Google Translate doesn't specifically support "Rajasthani".) Of course, I don't trust either of those blindly, but it *may* be a sign that the languages are the same, or at least very similar.

Another issue is how language codes for Rajasthani and Marwari are defined in ISO 639 3:

• raj ("Rajasthani") is a macro language, and none of its individual

languages are named "Marwari": https://iso639-3.sil.org/code/raj

• mwr ("Marwari") is a separate macro language:

https://iso639-3.sil.org/code/mwr . One of its individual languages is called "Marwari (India)", and its code is rwr. Google Translate uses "mwr", and the "Marwari" requests on Meta uses "rwr".

For what it's worth, according to both Glottolog and Ethnologue, Marwari is part of the Rajasthani branch.

All of the above is just very basic information I could find. I don't know the languages. It's very hard for me to make a good decision here, and I need the committee's help. Ideally, if a Wikipedia is created, and the software is localized, it should be done in a language that is already at least somewhat standardized, and can be read by some people. The language code usage should follow practices on other websites, but the only website I saw that uses any of these codes is Google Translate, which uses mwr.

If we mark raj as eligible, and rwr is essentially the same language, then perhaps we should revoke the eligibility of rwr.

But these are just thoughts. I would really appreciate more thoughts from other members of the committee. Thank you!

¹ I have to comment that this is a very good thing in general. I wish that all the people who request new languages did that.

-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

‫בתאריך יום א׳, 6 באפר׳ 2025 ב-11:08 מאת ‪Amir E. Aharoni‬‏ <‪ amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il‬‏>:‬

...

... I should have included it earlier—please see the discussion about it translatewiki: https://translatewiki.net/wiki/Support#Request_to_enable_Rajasthani_(raj)

-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

‫בתאריך יום א׳, 6 באפר׳ 2025 ב-11:05 מאת ‪Amir E. Aharoni‬‏ <‪ amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il‬‏>:‬

...

Reviving this discussion from a few months back.

There is now also a request on translatewiki to enable localization in Rajasthani, under the code "raj", which is a macro-language.

In November, Satdeep supported marking the proposal for the Rajasthani Wikipedia as eligible. If I interpret his other response correctly, he also recommended marking Hadauti ineligible and recommending its merging with Rajasthani.

If that's the interpretation, then I guess that it's OK to also enable raj for localization on translatewiki.

This is possibly sensible, but there are two issues:

1. It would be great if someone who is more knowledgeable about India

would confirm it before we go on. In particular, it would be great at least to check all the external sources given on https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Rajasth... . It would be even better to find more sources that confirm it, or maybe even sources that reject it.

2. According to Ethnologue, at least one individual language under the

raj macrolanguage is written using the Arabic script: Gujari ( https://www.ethnologue.com/language/gju/ ). I cannot find a request for it now, but it's spoken by more than a million people, so there may be a request in the future, and if it happens, it should probably be in a separate domain. Would it be OK to have one Wikipedia in a macro-language and another in an individual language? I think that it's OK in practice, but I do ask for other committee members' confirmation.

-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

‫בתאריך שבת, 9 בנוב׳ 2024 ב-10:11 מאת ‪Satdeep Gill‬‏ <‪ satdeepgill@gmail.com‬‏>:‬

...

Hi all,

I wasn't aware about Hadauti before this but Rajasthani is well known. Given that there are books in Rajasthani and it is taught as a subject in the state of Rajasthan, I am more inclined towards *marking Rajasthani eligible* while Hadauti seems like a single person's effort and might be better suited to be a part of the broader Rajasthani Wikipedia.

Best Satdeep

On Wed, 30 Oct 2024 at 02:54, Amir E. Aharoni < amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:

...

Hallo,

There are these two open requests:

1. hoj:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Hadauti 2. raj: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Rajasth...

raj is a macro language code, and hoj is one of the languages that belong to it.

I don't know these languages, and I'm not sure what to do about them.

I sent talk page messages to people who contributed to them, asking whether they actually plan to contribute to them more, and whether the current incubator articles in them look related.

Until we get any substantial replies, I recommend marking the two requests as "Waiting".

-- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬ _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list -- langcom@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-leave@lists.wikimedia.org

---

Langcom mailing list -- langcom@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-leave@lists.wikimedia.org

---

Langcom mailing list -- langcom@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-leave@lists.wikimedia.org

---

Langcom mailing list -- langcom@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-leave@lists.wikimedia.org