Deleting of fallback for a language

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Talysh Wikipedia

Bohdan Melnychuk

6 Feb 2014 6 Feb '14

4:17 a.m.

Hi, Ukrainian Wikipedia community holds vote for disabling Russian fallback language for Ukrainian interface language (https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Вікіпедія:Кнайпа_(пропозиції)#Зміна мовного приорітету для оголошень <https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BA%D1%96%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%96%D1%8F:%D0%9A%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BF%D0%B0_%28%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B8%D1%86%D1%96%D1%97%29#.D0.97.D0.BC.D1.96.D0.BD.D0.B0_.D0.BC.D0.BE.D0.B2.D0.BD.D0.BE.D0.B3.D0.BE_.D0.BF.D1.80.D0.B8.D0.BE.D1.80.D1.96.D1.82.D0.B5.D1.82.D1.83_.D0.B4.D0.BB.D1.8F_.D0.BE.D0.B3.D0.BE.D0.BB.D0.BE.D1.88.D0.B5.D0.BD.D1.8C>). Could langcom give procedural advices for how it shall be done the right way (e.g. I think there should be links to this vote from portal at TWN and in other Ukrainian Wikimedia projects' village pumps). We have cases when such our requests were not done by developers in spite of community decision so this time we need to know what way we should follow to done it finally. Sincerely, User:Base

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Michael Everson

6 Feb 6 Feb

12:04 p.m.

There has to be SOME fallback for untranslated strings. The base is English, I believe. I suspect most Ukrainian readers would find Russian fallback easier than English. If they don’t like Russian fallback, they should go to the trouble of translating the strings. “Disabling” fallback is foolish. On 5 Feb 2014, at 12:17, Bohdan Melnychuk <base-w(a)yandex.ru> wrote:

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Hi, Ukrainian Wikipedia community holds vote for disabling Russian fallback language for Ukrainian interface language (https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Вікіпедія:Кнайпа_(пропозиції)#Зміна мовного приорітету для оголошень). Could langcom give procedural advices for how it shall be done the right way (e.g. I think there should be links to this vote from portal at TWN and in other Ukrainian Wikimedia projects' village pumps). We have cases when such our requests were not done by developers in spite of community decision so this time we need to know what way we should follow to done it finally. Sincerely, User:Base _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

Karen Broome

1:09 p.m.

I agree with Michael. The burden should be on the community to do the translation needed, if the fallback isn't desired. Regards, Karen Broome ________________________________ From: Michael Everson <everson(a)evertype.com> To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee <langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org> Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2014 8:04 PM Subject: Re: [Langcom] Deleting of fallback for a language There has to be SOME fallback for untranslated strings. The base is English, I believe. I suspect most Ukrainian readers would find Russian fallback easier than English. If they don’t like Russian fallback, they should go to the trouble of translating the strings. “Disabling” fallback is foolish. On 5 Feb 2014, at 12:17, Bohdan Melnychuk <base-w(a)yandex.ru> wrote:

...

Hi, Ukrainian Wikipedia community holds vote for disabling Russian fallback language for Ukrainian interface language (https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Вікіпедія:Кнайпа_(пропозиції)#Зміна мовного приорітету для оголошень). Could langcom give procedural advices for how it shall be done the right way (e.g. I think there should be links to this vote from portal at TWN and in other Ukrainian Wikimedia projects' village pumps). We have cases when such our requests were not done by developers in spite of community decision so this time we need to know what way we should follow to done it finally. Sincerely, User:Base _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

MF-Warburg

3:51 p.m.

@ Michael, Karen: Naturally it is better if it is all translated into the language itself, but I don't see a reason why one should ignore a community consensus. It might also be asked whether a fallback introduced after community requests can or cannot be removed in the same way. What can be said however is that a decision on Wikipedia alone could not be enough since also others use MediaWiki. It could maybe be disabled only for uk.wp. We should also not forget Langcom doesn't have to say anything about MediaWiki development and configuration; developers do this. Am 05.02.2014 21:54 schrieb "Bohdan Melnychuk" <base-w(a)yandex.ru>ru>:

...

Hi, Ukrainian Wikipedia community holds vote for disabling Russian fallback language for Ukrainian interface language (https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Вікіпедія:Кнайпа_(пропозиції)#Зміна мовного приорітету для оголошень<https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BA%D1%96%D0%BF%D…)C>). Could langcom give procedural advices for how it shall be done the right way (e.g. I think there should be links to this vote from portal at TWN and in other Ukrainian Wikimedia projects' village pumps). We have cases when such our requests were not done by developers in spite of community decision so this time we need to know what way we should follow to done it finally. Sincerely, User:Base _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

Gerard Meijssen

4 p.m.

Hoi, Given the political situation in the Ukraine, it is obviously a reaction to the current regime and the associated discontent. It does however not negate the fact that most people still know Russian. It does however not negate the fact that all Russian will go away by translating the software. Thanks, GerardM On 6 February 2014 08:51, MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com> wrote:

...

Hi, Ukrainian Wikipedia community holds vote for disabling Russian fallback language for Ukrainian interface language (https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Вікіпедія:Кнайпа_(пропозиції)#Зміна мовного приорітету для оголошень<https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BA%D1%96%D0%BF%D…)C>). Could langcom give procedural advices for how it shall be done the right way (e.g. I think there should be links to this vote from portal at TWN and in other Ukrainian Wikimedia projects' village pumps). We have cases when such our requests were not done by developers in spite of community decision so this time we need to know what way we should follow to done it finally. Sincerely, User:Base _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

_______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

Oliver Stegen

9:52 p.m.

Exactly! Why not use such a situation of political discontent as motivation for localisation?!? The only reason that there’s Russian displayed in Ukrainian wiki products is that these items haven’t been translated yet. Fwiw, Oliver _____ From: Gerard Meijssen [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com] Sent: 06 February 2014 11:01 To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee Subject: Re: [Langcom] Deleting of fallback for a language Hoi, Given the political situation in the Ukraine, it is obviously a reaction to the current regime and the associated discontent. It does however not negate the fact that most people still know Russian. It does however not negate the fact that all Russian will go away by translating the software. Thanks, GerardM On 6 February 2014 08:51, MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com> wrote: @ Michael, Karen: Naturally it is better if it is all translated into the language itself, but I don't see a reason why one should ignore a community consensus. It might also be asked whether a fallback introduced after community requests can or cannot be removed in the same way. What can be said however is that a decision on Wikipedia alone could not be enough since also others use MediaWiki. It could maybe be disabled only for uk.wp. We should also not forget Langcom doesn't have to say anything about MediaWiki development and configuration; developers do this. Am 05.02.2014 <tel:05.02.2014%2021> 21:54 schrieb "Bohdan Melnychuk" <base-w(a)yandex.ru>ru>: Hi, Ukrainian Wikipedia community holds vote for disabling Russian fallback language for Ukrainian interface language (https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Вікіпедія:Кнайпа_(пропозиції)#Зміна <https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BA%D1%96%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1 %96%D1%8F:%D0%9A%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BF%D0%B0_%28%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BF%D 0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B8%D1%86%D1%96%D1%97%29#.D0.97.D0.BC.D1.96.D0.BD.D0.B0_.D0.BC. D0.BE.D0.B2.D0.BD.D0.BE.D0.B3.D0.BE_.D0.BF.D1.80.D0.B8.D0.BE.D1.80.D1.96.D1. 82.D0.B5.D1.82.D1.83_.D0.B4.D0.BB.D1.8F_.D0.BE.D0.B3.D0.BE.D0.BB.D0.BE.D1.88 .D0.B5.D0.BD.D1.8C> мовного приорітету для оголошень). Could langcom give procedural advices for how it shall be done the right way (e.g. I think there should be links to this vote from portal at TWN and in other Ukrainian Wikimedia projects' village pumps). We have cases when such our requests were not done by developers in spite of community decision so this time we need to know what way we should follow to done it finally. Sincerely, User:Base _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

Bohdan Melnychuk

8 Feb 8 Feb

4:54 a.m.

First some comments: It could be a factor but it isn't main factor. As I said we already had 2+ tries to disable Russian fallback - that were community decisions but they were ignored by devs. Personally I distinguish Ukraine and it's political situation and Wikimedia projects. They have nothing to do one with another save for need of wikiprojects to neutrally describe situation in articles. And most arguments have nothing to do with the situation either. Yes, there are some users who vote because their political views but they do it all the time in spite of what is going on in Ukraine. No, all Russian will not go away after translating - e.g. we already have rubbish Russian aliases of Special pages urls because after translating them to Ukrainian Russian were left and actually deleting these aliases would mean broking a number of links. We don't wan't continuing of producing such rubbish. I'll try to return the discussion to the original request: could you advise some procedure? Unfortunately I know no more appropriate let's name it institutions who deal with language things. At least if we can't disable it to all MediaWiki sites - what shall we do to disable it in all WMF wikis - I thing it should be quite within competence of LangCom. Thanks you in advance, Sincerely, User:Base 06.02.2014 15:52, Oliver Stegen написав(ла):

...

Exactly! Why not use such a situation of political discontent as motivation for localisation?!? The only reason that there’s Russian displayed in Ukrainian wiki products is that these items haven’t been translated yet. Fwiw, Oliver ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From:*Gerard Meijssen [mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com] *Sent:* 06 February 2014 11:01 *To:* Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee *Subject:* Re: [Langcom] Deleting of fallback for a language Hoi, Given the political situation in the Ukraine, it is obviously a reaction to the current regime and the associated discontent. It does however not negate the fact that most people still know Russian. It does however not negate the fact that all Russian will go away by translating the software. Thanks, GerardM On 6 February 2014 08:51, MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com <mailto:mfwarburg@googlemail.com>> wrote: @ Michael, Karen: Naturally it is better if it is all translated into the language itself, but I don't see a reason why one should ignore a community consensus. It might also be asked whether a fallback introduced after community requests can or cannot be removed in the same way. What can be said however is that a decision on Wikipedia alone could not be enough since also others use MediaWiki. It could maybe be disabled only for uk.wp. We should also not forget Langcom doesn't have to say anything about MediaWiki development and configuration; developers do this. Am 05.02.2014 21 <tel:05.02.2014%2021>:54 schrieb "Bohdan Melnychuk" <base-w(a)yandex.ru <mailto:base-w@yandex.ru>>: Hi, Ukrainian Wikipedia community holds vote for disabling Russian fallback language for Ukrainian interface language (https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Вікіпедія:Кнайпа_(пропозиції)#Зміна мовного приорітету для оголошень <https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BA%D1%96%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%96%D1%8F:%D0%9A%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BF%D0%B0_%28%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B8%D1%86%D1%96%D1%97%29#.D0.97.D0.BC.D1.96.D0.BD.D0.B0_.D0.BC.D0.BE.D0.B2.D0.BD.D0.BE.D0.B3.D0.BE_.D0.BF.D1.80.D0.B8.D0.BE.D1.80.D1.96.D1.82.D0.B5.D1.82.D1.83_.D0.B4.D0.BB.D1.8F_.D0.BE.D0.B3.D0.BE.D0.BB.D0.BE.D1.88.D0.B5.D0.BD.D1.8C>). Could langcom give procedural advices for how it shall be done the right way (e.g. I think there should be links to this vote from portal at TWN and in other Ukrainian Wikimedia projects' village pumps). We have cases when such our requests were not done by developers in spite of community decision so this time we need to know what way we should follow to done it finally. Sincerely, User:Base _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

Michael Everson

7 Feb 7 Feb

1:02 a.m.

On 5 Feb 2014, at 23:51, MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com> wrote:

...

@ Michael, Karen: Naturally it is better if it is all translated into the language itself, but I don't see a reason why one should ignore a community consensus.

MF-Warburg

5:08 a.m.

No. MediaWiki's fallback always last falls back to English. If a fallback to Russian is removed, the fallback to English becomes active. Am 06.02.2014 18:03 schrieb "Michael Everson" <everson(a)evertype.com>om>:

...

On 5 Feb 2014, at 23:51, MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com> wrote:

@ Michael, Karen: Naturally it is better if it is all translated into

the language itself, but I don't see a reason why one should ignore a community consensus. You can't just BLANK the strings for translation. If they are offended by Russian for some impractical political ideal, then they can use the English strings as fallback. But if they blank the strings (which is all I can imagine "disabling" fallback is) then important messages for users will be stripped out and that will cause operational and interoperational chaos. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

Gerard Meijssen

11:46 p.m.

Hoi, Yes and it is a disserve to do this. Thanks, GerardM On 6 February 2014 22:08, MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com> wrote:

...

@ Michael, Karen: Naturally it is better if it is all translated into

the language itself, but I don't see a reason why one should ignore a community consensus. You can’t just BLANK the strings for translation. If they are offended by Russian for some impractical political ideal, then they can use the English strings as fallback. But if they blank the strings (which is all I can imagine “disabling” fallback is) then important messages for users will be stripped out and that will cause operational and interoperational chaos. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

_______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

MF-Warburg

11:49 p.m.

That is what you say. Am 07.02.2014 16:47 schrieb "Gerard Meijssen" <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>om>:

...

Hoi, Yes and it is a disserve to do this. Thanks, GerardM On 6 February 2014 22:08, MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com> wrote:

@ Michael, Karen: Naturally it is better if it is all translated into

_______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

Michael Everson

9 Feb 9 Feb

12:24 a.m.

On 7 Feb 2014, at 09:49, MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com> wrote:

...

That is what you say.

I agree with him. Here’s a string. It’s not in Ukrainian. It falls back to Russian, which nearly all Ukrainian users can read. Or it falls back to English, which fewer Ukrainians can read. Either way, they’re wasting their time with political posturing about Russian when they should just be getting on with translating the strings into Ukrainian. I mean, really. Michael

...

Am 07.02.2014 16:47 schrieb "Gerard Meijssen" <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>om>: Hoi, Yes and it is a disserve to do this. Thanks, GerardM On 6 February 2014 22:08, MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com> wrote: No. MediaWiki's fallback always last falls back to English. If a fallback to Russian is removed, the fallback to English becomes active. Am 06.02.2014 18:03 schrieb "Michael Everson" <everson(a)evertype.com>om>: On 5 Feb 2014, at 23:51, MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com> wrote:

@ Michael, Karen: Naturally it is better if it is all translated into the language itself, but I don't see a reason why one should ignore a community consensus.

You can’t just BLANK the strings for translation. If they are offended by Russian for some impractical political ideal, then they can use the English strings as fallback. But if they blank the strings (which is all I can imagine “disabling” fallback is) then important messages for users will be stripped out and that will cause operational and interoperational chaos. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/ _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

Vira Motorko

1:51 a.m.

Hello all, they're wasting their time with political posturing about Russian when they

...

should just be getting on with translating the strings into Ukrainian. I mean, really.

I'm not sure I understand Michael. If you have a look at MediaWiki message group on translatewiki, you'll see that it is translated in Ukrainian<https://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Special%3ATranslate&am…&task=untranslated>. So we have to take into consideration that translators exist, who actually don't waste their time and will be surprised to hear such POV as above. The last situation which caused in ukwiki voting for deletion of Russian fallback was connected with POTY banner. It does not have a link for translating within its text (as it usually is with citenotices), that is why translators needed much time for looking for the place to do this. People don't like to see notices in foreign language anyway but even more they don't like to see notices in other foreign language which is not even a source language of the message. Imagine an Englishman taking de Saint-Exupéry in Spanish because this book in library lies on a closer shelf. What's the reason to take it, if they can take the original or go further and take English edition from the other shelf (or maybe wait one day till somebody brings back borrowed book)? The whole situation feels like that. But. I'll try to return the discussion to the original request: *could you

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advise some procedure? *

This is the question. ---- Regards, Vira

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participants (7)

Bohdan Melnychuk
Gerard Meijssen
Karen Broome
MF-Warburg
Michael Everson
Oliver Stegen
Vira Motorko