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Rejection of Wikipedia Prekmurian

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Approval of Ingush Wikipedia

MF-Warburg

2 Mar 2017 2 Mar '17

2:55 a.m.

I propose to reject < https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Prekmu…gt;. As noted on the page, there was a request to obtain an ISO code, but that was rejected in 2012.

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Oliver Stegen

2 Mar 2 Mar

11:43 a.m.

+1 As noted in Ethnologue, Prekmurian remains mentioned under Slovenian (https://www.ethnologue.com/language/slv), especially as the Slovenian dialect as spoken in Hungary. The historical literature written in Prekmurian, as argued about in the request discussion, is already included in sl:wp (cf. https://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorija:Prekmurske_tiskane_knjige). On 02-Mar-17 03:55, MF-Warburg wrote:

I propose to reject <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Prekmurian>. As noted on the page, there was a request to obtain an ISO code, but that was rejected in 2012. _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

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Milos Rancic

1:26 p.m.

I would leave "on hold" status. Unlike the most of Slavic languages, Slovenian varieties are very distant between themselves. Speaker of standard Slovenian is not able to understand a person speaking a Styrian variety in Maribor and Prekmurian is even further to the east, belonging to the group of Pannonian varieties Not surprisingly, the issue of calling something a language or not is a political issue and, at the best, such initiatives are just not getting official support. There are many of such cases, some of them are bizarre, while the most of them are simply neglected. In the case of varieties of Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and Montenegrin, the situation is bizarre on multiple levels. The whole area has four main varieties: * Shtokavian ** Neo-Sthokavian ** Older Shtokavian * Kaykavian * Chakavian * Shop / Torlakian (recognizes as "Prizren-Timok dialect", categorized locally as "Old Shtokavian) All of the ISO 639-3 recognized standards belong to the Neo-Shtokavian group. Montenegrin, not recognized by ISO 639-3 is a mix of Neo-Shtokavian and Older Shtokavian varieties (and, unlike three recognized varieties, has two more distinctive letters/phonemes). Not long ago, JAC has recognized Kaykavian. But the way it's been recognized is bizarre. It is categorized as "historical" language, although it's a living language. I even heard reasoning of one Croatian linguist that Chakavian is not recognized because it doesn't have "historical background", although it's a plain lie, as Chakavian was written in it's own, specific Glagolitic script up to the beginning of 20th century and is, as Kaykavian is, a living language. Shop / Torlakian -- although both living and mutually non-intelligible with the surrounding varieties of Serbian and Bulgarian -- doesn't have ISO 639-3 code because of both being neglected (by both, Serbian and Bulgarian side) as a kind of settled political issue related to the border area ethnicity. Having in mind that Montenegrin, the most distinctive variety of Shtokavian standards, recognized as a native language by ~200,000 people, haven't passed JAC, while other three have been recognized, that nobody cares about few hundred thousands speakers of Shop / Torlakian, I have no doubt that one interested person (and I see that his knowledge of English is not on particularly high level) can't push recognition of his native variety to become an "officially recognized language". That's the reason for my suggestion to give them unlimited time to do so. This is the case of completely valid language, which requires inclusion into ISO 639-3 to be added into Wikimedia. As, according to the present rules, we are not able to create "sla-prk" (as we did with "bas-smg", which has been eventually recognized as "sgs"), I think that we should simply leave it "on hold" and wait. On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 10:43 AM, Oliver Stegen <oliver_stegen(a)sil.org> wrote:

+1 As noted in Ethnologue, Prekmurian remains mentioned under Slovenian (https://www.ethnologue.com/language/slv), especially as the Slovenian dialect as spoken in Hungary. The historical literature written in Prekmurian, as argued about in the request discussion, is already included in sl:wp (cf. https://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorija:Prekmurske_tiskane_knjige). On 02-Mar-17 03:55, MF-Warburg wrote: I propose to reject <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Prekmurian>. As noted on the page, there was a request to obtain an ISO code, but that was rejected in 2012. _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

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MF-Warburg

10 Mar 10 Mar

11:02 a.m.

I understand. However, is there any movement currently that tries to get an ISO code? Otherwise, I think it would be clearer to mark it as rejected and say that people are welcome to open a new request when they have an ISO code (as we also did in similar cases). 2017-03-02 12:26 GMT+01:00 Milos Rancic <millosh(a)gmail.com>om>:

I would leave "on hold" status. Unlike the most of Slavic languages, Slovenian varieties are very distant between themselves. Speaker of standard Slovenian is not able to understand a person speaking a Styrian variety in Maribor and Prekmurian is even further to the east, belonging to the group of Pannonian varieties Not surprisingly, the issue of calling something a language or not is a political issue and, at the best, such initiatives are just not getting official support. There are many of such cases, some of them are bizarre, while the most of them are simply neglected. In the case of varieties of Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and Montenegrin, the situation is bizarre on multiple levels. The whole area has four main varieties: * Shtokavian ** Neo-Sthokavian ** Older Shtokavian * Kaykavian * Chakavian * Shop / Torlakian (recognizes as "Prizren-Timok dialect", categorized locally as "Old Shtokavian) All of the ISO 639-3 recognized standards belong to the Neo-Shtokavian group. Montenegrin, not recognized by ISO 639-3 is a mix of Neo-Shtokavian and Older Shtokavian varieties (and, unlike three recognized varieties, has two more distinctive letters/phonemes). Not long ago, JAC has recognized Kaykavian. But the way it's been recognized is bizarre. It is categorized as "historical" language, although it's a living language. I even heard reasoning of one Croatian linguist that Chakavian is not recognized because it doesn't have "historical background", although it's a plain lie, as Chakavian was written in it's own, specific Glagolitic script up to the beginning of 20th century and is, as Kaykavian is, a living language. Shop / Torlakian -- although both living and mutually non-intelligible with the surrounding varieties of Serbian and Bulgarian -- doesn't have ISO 639-3 code because of both being neglected (by both, Serbian and Bulgarian side) as a kind of settled political issue related to the border area ethnicity. Having in mind that Montenegrin, the most distinctive variety of Shtokavian standards, recognized as a native language by ~200,000 people, haven't passed JAC, while other three have been recognized, that nobody cares about few hundred thousands speakers of Shop / Torlakian, I have no doubt that one interested person (and I see that his knowledge of English is not on particularly high level) can't push recognition of his native variety to become an "officially recognized language". That's the reason for my suggestion to give them unlimited time to do so. This is the case of completely valid language, which requires inclusion into ISO 639-3 to be added into Wikimedia. As, according to the present rules, we are not able to create "sla-prk" (as we did with "bas-smg", which has been eventually recognized as "sgs"), I think that we should simply leave it "on hold" and wait. On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 10:43 AM, Oliver Stegen <oliver_stegen(a)sil.org> wrote:

+1 As noted in Ethnologue, Prekmurian remains mentioned under Slovenian (https://www.ethnologue.com/language/slv), especially as the Slovenian dialect as spoken in Hungary. The historical literature written in Prekmurian, as argued about in the request discussion, is already

included

in sl:wp (cf. https://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorija:Prekmurske_tiskane_knjige). On 02-Mar-17 03:55, MF-Warburg wrote: I propose to reject <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_

languages/Wikipedia_Prekmurian>.

As noted on the page, there was a request to obtain an ISO code, but that was rejected in 2012. _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

_______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

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MF-Warburg

19 Jul 19 Jul

1:36 a.m.

I have done that now. 2017-03-10 10:02 GMT+01:00 MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com>om>:

I understand. However, is there any movement currently that tries to get an ISO code? Otherwise, I think it would be clearer to mark it as rejected and say that people are welcome to open a new request when they have an ISO code (as we also did in similar cases). 2017-03-02 12:26 GMT+01:00 Milos Rancic <millosh(a)gmail.com>om>:

I would leave "on hold" status. Unlike the most of Slavic languages, Slovenian varieties are very distant between themselves. Speaker of standard Slovenian is not able to understand a person speaking a Styrian variety in Maribor and Prekmurian is even further to the east, belonging to the group of Pannonian varieties Not surprisingly, the issue of calling something a language or not is a political issue and, at the best, such initiatives are just not getting official support. There are many of such cases, some of them are bizarre, while the most of them are simply neglected. In the case of varieties of Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and Montenegrin, the situation is bizarre on multiple levels. The whole area has four main varieties: * Shtokavian ** Neo-Sthokavian ** Older Shtokavian * Kaykavian * Chakavian * Shop / Torlakian (recognizes as "Prizren-Timok dialect", categorized locally as "Old Shtokavian) All of the ISO 639-3 recognized standards belong to the Neo-Shtokavian group. Montenegrin, not recognized by ISO 639-3 is a mix of Neo-Shtokavian and Older Shtokavian varieties (and, unlike three recognized varieties, has two more distinctive letters/phonemes). Not long ago, JAC has recognized Kaykavian. But the way it's been recognized is bizarre. It is categorized as "historical" language, although it's a living language. I even heard reasoning of one Croatian linguist that Chakavian is not recognized because it doesn't have "historical background", although it's a plain lie, as Chakavian was written in it's own, specific Glagolitic script up to the beginning of 20th century and is, as Kaykavian is, a living language. Shop / Torlakian -- although both living and mutually non-intelligible with the surrounding varieties of Serbian and Bulgarian -- doesn't have ISO 639-3 code because of both being neglected (by both, Serbian and Bulgarian side) as a kind of settled political issue related to the border area ethnicity. Having in mind that Montenegrin, the most distinctive variety of Shtokavian standards, recognized as a native language by ~200,000 people, haven't passed JAC, while other three have been recognized, that nobody cares about few hundred thousands speakers of Shop / Torlakian, I have no doubt that one interested person (and I see that his knowledge of English is not on particularly high level) can't push recognition of his native variety to become an "officially recognized language". That's the reason for my suggestion to give them unlimited time to do so. This is the case of completely valid language, which requires inclusion into ISO 639-3 to be added into Wikimedia. As, according to the present rules, we are not able to create "sla-prk" (as we did with "bas-smg", which has been eventually recognized as "sgs"), I think that we should simply leave it "on hold" and wait. On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 10:43 AM, Oliver Stegen <oliver_stegen(a)sil.org> wrote:

+1 As noted in Ethnologue, Prekmurian remains mentioned under Slovenian (https://www.ethnologue.com/language/slv), especially as the Slovenian dialect as spoken in Hungary. The historical literature written in Prekmurian, as argued about in the request discussion, is already

included

in sl:wp (cf. https://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorija:Prekmurske_tiskane_knjige). On 02-Mar-17 03:55, MF-Warburg wrote: I propose to reject <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/

Wikipedia_Prekmurian>.

As noted on the page, there was a request to obtain an ISO code, but

that

was rejected in 2012. _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

_______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list Langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

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MF-Warburg
Milos Rancic
Oliver Stegen