Wikipedia Levantine Arabic - Langcom

Gerard Meijssen

1 Aug 1 Aug

2:58 p.m.

Hoi, it is a recognised language. With enough people supporting a new project, there is no reason not to have it. Thanks, GerardM On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 at 14:39, Sotiale Wiki <sotiale.wm(a)gmail.com> wrote:

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* related: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Levant… It was proposed in 2015 and has been abandoned for about 2 years, but has received intermittent attention over the past few years. ISO 639-3 code is assigned to this language, and there is a test project in Wikimedia incubator, but there are 5 pages except templates, categories, talkpages, and modules. Looking at the discussion, it seems that speakers of this language can speak Arabic for granted. Arabic speakers seem to perceive this as a dialect of some sort. I wonder what you think of this proposal. I think it is appropriate to be rejected unless evidence is presented that this is not at the level of a dialect that does not differ to an incomprehensible degree from Arabic. Sotiale _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list -- langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org

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Amir E. Aharoni

4:02 p.m.

It should not be rejected outright without at least consulting with actual experts. I know a tiny bit of Standard and Levantine Arabic, but I'm definitely not an expert. As far as I can tell, it's as eligible as Moroccan and Egyptian Arabic, which we've already approved. And this is true even though Levantive is often mentioned as one of the closest variants to standard Arabic. There isn't a lot of published written content published in any of the Arabic variants other than Modern Standard Arabic, including Levantine. For the particular case of Levantine, I am aware of a complete translation of The Little Prince. There was a recent political campaign in Israel, with some written material in the local dialect, which is one variety of Levantine. There were also attempts to publish newspapers and books in it in Lebanon, but I know less about that. It's also widely used in writing on social media. It's informal, but it is a thing nevertheless; if a language is popular on the web in general, it can contribute to its success in a Wikipedia. So no, it probably shouldn't be rejected outright. -- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬ ‫בתאריך יום א׳, 1 באוג׳ 2021 ב-15:39 מאת ‪Sotiale Wiki‬‏ <‪ sotiale.wm@gmail.com‬‏>:‬

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* related: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Levant… It was proposed in 2015 and has been abandoned for about 2 years, but has received intermittent attention over the past few years. ISO 639-3 code is assigned to this language, and there is a test project in Wikimedia incubator, but there are 5 pages except templates, categories, talkpages, and modules. Looking at the discussion, it seems that speakers of this language can speak Arabic for granted. Arabic speakers seem to perceive this as a dialect of some sort. I wonder what you think of this proposal. I think it is appropriate to be rejected unless evidence is presented that this is not at the level of a dialect that does not differ to an incomprehensible degree from Arabic. Sotiale _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list -- langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org

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Gerard Meijssen

4:41 p.m.

Hoi, When the language policy was defined, we accepted any and all living ISO-639-3 languages. It follows that many languages in the Arabic language family are eligible. What it takes for a Wikipedia to be realised is a community who create a resource for their language. At the end, when it is to be decided if the project can be created, we need an expert to certify that the texts in the Incubator are that specific language. Thanks, GerardM On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 at 16:17, Sotiale Wiki <sotiale.wm(a)gmail.com> wrote:

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I agree with you that this proposal should not be rejected until expert opinion is sought. This is in line with my argument that this language needs to be justified as not at the level of a common dialect. LPP states that the language must be unique: "The language must be sufficiently unique that it could not coexist on a more general wiki." I'd like to get some expert advice from linguists, can someone recommend a linguist who can answer this case? Sotiale 2021년 8월 1일 (일) 오후 11:02, Amir E. Aharoni <amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.xn--il>-n54x791j 작성:

It should not be rejected outright without at least consulting with actual experts. I know a tiny bit of Standard and Levantine Arabic, but I'm definitely not an expert. As far as I can tell, it's as eligible as Moroccan and Egyptian Arabic, which we've already approved. And this is true even though Levantive is often mentioned as one of the closest variants to standard Arabic. There isn't a lot of published written content published in any of the Arabic variants other than Modern Standard Arabic, including Levantine. For the particular case of Levantine, I am aware of a complete translation of The Little Prince. There was a recent political campaign in Israel, with some written material in the local dialect, which is one variety of Levantine. There were also attempts to publish newspapers and books in it in Lebanon, but I know less about that. It's also widely used in writing on social media. It's informal, but it is a thing nevertheless; if a language is popular on the web in general, it can contribute to its success in a Wikipedia. So no, it probably shouldn't be rejected outright. -- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬ ‫בתאריך יום א׳, 1 באוג׳ 2021 ב-15:39 מאת ‪Sotiale Wiki‬‏ <‪ sotiale.wm@gmail.com‬‏>:‬

* related: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Levant… It was proposed in 2015 and has been abandoned for about 2 years, but has received intermittent attention over the past few years. ISO 639-3 code is assigned to this language, and there is a test project in Wikimedia incubator, but there are 5 pages except templates, categories, talkpages, and modules. Looking at the discussion, it seems that speakers of this language can speak Arabic for granted. Arabic speakers seem to perceive this as a dialect of some sort. I wonder what you think of this proposal. I think it is appropriate to be rejected unless evidence is presented that this is not at the level of a dialect that does not differ to an incomprehensible degree from Arabic. Sotiale _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list -- langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org

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Sotiale Wiki

6:19 p.m.

Thanks, Amir E. Aharoni. If the language is sufficiently distinct, at this point there is no need to consult a linguist. I was wondering if the proposal was eligible or rejected under the LPP, and if this is distinct, I don't think there is any further discussion point. As already described, incubator only has 5 (main) pages, and it uses 2 different notations. (Of course, I don't know if this language actually has 2 notations.) In any case, there are currently no other ratings points for this project as there is no community formed and there is not enough content. In my opinion, whether the language is mature enough will likely have to be considered based on the content being contributed in the future. As your intuition says, if there was a translation of The Little Prince, it wouldn't be a language without possibilities for creating an encyclopedia. But there is too little content contributed at this time. If there is no problem with the language being distinct enough, I will mark it as eligible according to the discussion here. Sotiale 2021년 8월 2일 (월) 오전 12:27, Amir E. Aharoni <amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.xn--il>-n54x791j 작성:

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It is sufficiently distinct, there's no doubt about that. A bigger question is whether its written form is mature enough for an encyclopedia. My intuition tells me that if it's mature enough for The Little Prince, then it's mature enough for an encyclopedia, but please don't take my word for it. In any case, it's probably better to ask an expert after some articles are written. בתאריך יום א׳, 1 באוג׳ 2021, 17:17, מאת Sotiale Wiki ‏< sotiale.wm(a)gmail.com>gt;:

I agree with you that this proposal should not be rejected until expert opinion is sought. This is in line with my argument that this language needs to be justified as not at the level of a common dialect. LPP states that the language must be unique: "The language must be sufficiently unique that it could not coexist on a more general wiki." I'd like to get some expert advice from linguists, can someone recommend a linguist who can answer this case? Sotiale 2021년 8월 1일 (일) 오후 11:02, Amir E. Aharoni <amir.aharoni(a)mail.huji.ac.xn--il>-n54x791j 작성:

It should not be rejected outright without at least consulting with actual experts. I know a tiny bit of Standard and Levantine Arabic, but I'm definitely not an expert. As far as I can tell, it's as eligible as Moroccan and Egyptian Arabic, which we've already approved. And this is true even though Levantive is often mentioned as one of the closest variants to standard Arabic. There isn't a lot of published written content published in any of the Arabic variants other than Modern Standard Arabic, including Levantine. For the particular case of Levantine, I am aware of a complete translation of The Little Prince. There was a recent political campaign in Israel, with some written material in the local dialect, which is one variety of Levantine. There were also attempts to publish newspapers and books in it in Lebanon, but I know less about that. It's also widely used in writing on social media. It's informal, but it is a thing nevertheless; if a language is popular on the web in general, it can contribute to its success in a Wikipedia. So no, it probably shouldn't be rejected outright. -- Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬ ‫בתאריך יום א׳, 1 באוג׳ 2021 ב-15:39 מאת ‪Sotiale Wiki‬‏ <‪ sotiale.wm@gmail.com‬‏>:‬

* related: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Levant… It was proposed in 2015 and has been abandoned for about 2 years, but has received intermittent attention over the past few years. ISO 639-3 code is assigned to this language, and there is a test project in Wikimedia incubator, but there are 5 pages except templates, categories, talkpages, and modules. Looking at the discussion, it seems that speakers of this language can speak Arabic for granted. Arabic speakers seem to perceive this as a dialect of some sort. I wonder what you think of this proposal. I think it is appropriate to be rejected unless evidence is presented that this is not at the level of a dialect that does not differ to an incomprehensible degree from Arabic. Sotiale _______________________________________________ Langcom mailing list -- langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to langcom-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org

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