Send Langcom mailing list submissions to
langcom@lists.wikimedia.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flangcom&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca0057ca0c90d4b6bf7dd08d5f52edf71%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636684504018662744&sdata=2HTf7jxe0godookY3op5m%2FNXHRTnLr5cf7%2FyCms8n%2Fs%3D&reserved=0
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
langcom-request@lists.wikimedia.org
You can reach the person managing the list at
langcom-owner@lists.wikimedia.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Langcom digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Please read: Fixing Incubator (Amir E. Aharoni)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 11:39:25 +0300
From: "Amir E. Aharoni" <amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
<langcom@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Please read: Fixing Incubator
Message-ID:
<CACtNa8s9UbgVja-_URLJpuxT711oHNeGKFk__CRbzigWaPJ2Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
As promised, a more detailed reply. (Sorry it took me a bit—my laptop was
crashing strangely.)
Arjan's main question was about monitoring vandalism across multiple
incubator wikis, which are suggested in the proposal. And my answer is
no—at the moment I don't have more details about it.
Obviously, this cannot be done without a clear and agreed solution to this
problem, or at least an agreement to make a temporary conditional
experiment. That's why I wrote in the Phabricator task: "Patroling all such
domains for vandalism must be at least as easy as it is for Incubator". I
don't have a complete solution to this, but it's clear that it's a
sine-qua-non condition for moving forward.
My plan was to bring this up at Incubator's own community discussion pages.
The closest thing that I have currently to a written proposal to monitor
wikis is the one by Martin Urbanec at his comment on Phabricator:
https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphabricator.wikimedia.org%2FT165585%234221392&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca0057ca0c90d4b6bf7dd08d5f52edf71%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636684504018662744&sdata=yU7bsayA%2Fnq5PG12UAO0Ex3PjgFuu7S333oaSWMEqwc%3D&reserved=0
Does this sound like a beginning of something sensible and feasible? Or is
it too technical and complex and inappropriate?
--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faharoni.wordpress.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca0057ca0c90d4b6bf7dd08d5f52edf71%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636684504018662744&sdata=nFTpUIzXwBbirWrgZKBEQEtXvrUDL8g4PtiwXx3AQaE%3D&reserved=0
“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore
2018-07-26 11:32 GMT+03:00 Arjan Verheijden <arjanverheijden@hotmail.com>:
> Hi!
>
>
> I have to tell that I am not very happy about this being discussed without
> consulting the admins of the Incubator. There has been no announcement
> about this discussion, nor even a simple message on admin's talk pages
> about this. If I weren't subscribed to the LangCom mailing list, I wouldn't
> even have known this discussion was taking place.
>
>
> As a lot is pretty technical, I can only comment on what I think this
> proposal is about.
>
>
> I agree that there are some major issues on the Incubator concerning edit
> comfort (prefixes, standard templates/modules, wikidata, etc.). If I
> understand correctly, the idea is to split off the most active tests into
> own semi-subdomains. A big problem that will have to be addressed with this
> is that separate domains require way more monitoring. Now, with all tests
> in one wiki, it is easy for the Incubator team to remove spam, vandalism,
> errors in pages, etc, and easy to run bots for broken redirects etc. With
> separate domains, that will become an impossible task, unless somekind of
> admin interface is created in which all tests can be monitored from one
> Recent Changes.
>
>
> I saw in the Phabricator task: "Patroling all such domains for vandalism
> must be at least as easy as it is for Incubator." Is anything known about
> the status of this? Has a solution already been found?
>
>
> Greetings,
>
> Owtb
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *Från:* Langcom <langcom-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org> för Amir E. Aharoni
> <amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il>
> *Skickat:* den 26 juli 2018 07:42
> *Till:* Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee
> *Ämne:* Re: [Langcom] Please read: Fixing Incubator
>
>
>
> 2018-07-25 20:04 GMT+03:00 Steven White <Koala19890@hotmail.com>:
>
> >... I really don't want this
> >discussion to go in the direction of arguing about historical languages
> >policy. ...
>
> Me, either. But for the moment Incubator needs to continue to serve those
> test projects.
>
>
> No problem.
>
>
> >... I even welcome you to create semi-artificial
> >criteria that would put the number of the first test wikis at around 50 :)
>
> I can manage that.
>
> >I guess that I'd do one of the following:
> >
> >1. Define what does "a while" mean. For example, we can decide, somewhat
> >arbitrarily, that a project under incubator.wikimedia.org
> <
https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fincubator.wikimedia.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C53046b7063b34f94056408d5f2ba97a0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636681805576428411&sdata=%2FdMScd83ta%2BNtbY0kvBqbo9dYXyip%2B5YjSbDTe2OK10%3D&reserved=0>
> in which there
> >were no edits for over a year, will be considered "dormant" and that a
> test
> >wiki won't be created for it until somebody asks.
> >2. Just use case by case intuition.
>
> Right now I am using a blend of the above. I tend to use page creations,
> not edits, because from time to time you get random edits from people who
> sweep through and update the name of the current prime minister in the
> infobox, without really doing anything else, and I'm not sure those really
> reflect "activity".
>
>
> They don't. It should all be done in Wikidata, for a lot of reasons, and
> this is one of those reasons.
>
>
> That said, I also ignore page additions by certain people I know are doing
> maintenance (me, Liuxinyu970226, others). I also ignore cases where the
> only page addition comes from the automatic creation of a redirect after a
> page move. Finally, for this purpose, we ignore single page creations from
> IPs.
>
> >> - Conversely, many tests open with a flurry of activity (over 1
> day
> >> to 2 months), then go dormant.
> >
> >So, here's my theory behind the whole proposal: In the current incubator,
> >people quickly create a bunch of articles on topics that interest them,
> >sometimes with some boilerplate (cities, countries, animals), but but then
> >they get tired of the prefixes, the outdated translation techniques, the
> >weird searching, the missing templates, etc., and give up. Perhaps with a
> >single wiki these difficulties will be alleviated. I know it sounds a bit
> >too optimistic, but at least I want to get rid of these most glaring and
> >arbitrary difficulties, with the hope that it will help people remain
> >active.
>
> You may be right. I just don't know. Do we have feedback saying so? Or is
> this just everyone's gut instinct. (Mind you, I can't possibly say I
> disagree.)
>
>
> Observing people in real life editing in Incubator, many times. In
> particular, in Kabardian, Adyghe, Fon, and Dinka, with which I've had a
> closer relationship.
>
> And a few days ago there was a presentation at Wikimania that makes pretty
> much the same complaints:
https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca0057ca0c90d4b6bf7dd08d5f52edf71%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636684504018662744&sdata=B9Tv3V02kDBwtkiHLTj4qphfGbqSfZDEiH%2BI3%2BLyyu0%3D&reserved=0?
> v=yMOS19Dj7rU&t=29m
> <
https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DyMOS19Dj7rU%26t%3D29m&data=02%7C01%7C%7C53046b7063b34f94056408d5f2ba97a0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636681805576428411&sdata=ACvnvmdlURKJf6FgoZ0sX5vi3yotIYJR%2BFUIWin3D1k%3D&reserved=0>
> .
>
>
>
>
> That said, this approach doesn't solve all the problems you describe. In
> particular, this won't automatically create basic templates and modules,
>
>
> Yes. I'm working on that in a separate initiative. It's complicated, but
> much-needed.
>
>
> And at the end of the day, contributors to new tests still have to write
> or translate pages.
>
>
> Of course, as they do in usual wikis. It's not without issues, but at
> least it will have proper search, Wikidata, and Content Translation, and no
> prefixes.
>
>
>
> >Yes, I tend to think that we should allow to create new subdomains for
> >*eligible* languages right away, so that all of them will get equal
> >treatment as early as possible, from the very first page.
>
> In order to do this, then, a few things would have to happen in fairly
> short order, once we're ready to approach the problem like that.
>
>
> - The "Requests for new languages" system on Meta will have to have
> teeth, and to be the arbiter for whether a project is (a) eligible for an
> incubation subdomain, (b)(interim, at least) should start on Incubator, or
> (c) is not eligible. IF THAT IS TO BE MEANINGFUL, I NEED LANGCOM MEMBERS TO
> RESPOND TO MY SUBMISSIONS ON SUCH MATTERS, or to go to Meta and mark
> projects eligible themselves. I appreciate that people are generally
> allowing me to call those shots right now, but since just about anyone can
> start a test project on Incubator, the stakes on decisions about "eligible"
> aren't all that high right now. The stakes will become higher under this
> new regimen.
>
>
> Yes, this is pretty obvious.
>
> I do envision that the incubator wiki creation will a mostly automatic
> process. There is no good reason for it to require any manual intervention
> from Ops engineer, as it happens now. There should be a simple form
> somewhere on one of our other wikis, probably Meta or
> wikitech.wikimedia.org
> <
https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwikitech.wikimedia.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C53046b7063b34f94056408d5f2ba97a0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636681805576428411&sdata=u8bSmyze1jQi7paddEy1SRWuMH8%2BGyLOaxIyN0Tf%2Bks%3D&reserved=0>
> , where one will have to fill project family (pedia, voyage, etc.),
> language code, autonym, text direction, logo file name—and push a button.
> The interesting question is who should have the permission to fill this
> form and push the button. My immediate thought is "language committee
> members", of course, but other ideas are welcome.
>
>
>
> - FWIW, in clearing the backlog at RFL, we're almost to the end of
> requests dating to 2012 or earlier, and have addressed almost all of the
> 2017 and 2018 requests (except those in the last month or so).
>
>
> Have I mentioned how much do I appreciate what you do there? It's truly
> wonderful that you are taking care of this backlog.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Langcom mailing list
> Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org
>
https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flangcom&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca0057ca0c90d4b6bf7dd08d5f52edf71%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636684504018662744&sdata=2HTf7jxe0godookY3op5m%2FNXHRTnLr5cf7%2FyCms8n%2Fs%3D&reserved=0
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <
https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fpipermail%2Flangcom%2Fattachments%2F20180729%2F9e00e9c9%2Fattachment.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca0057ca0c90d4b6bf7dd08d5f52edf71%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636684504018662744&sdata=m%2Fpe3SkqbVMJ9r%2FnCS4O4rNiWyCFEvd73HlYPWKu0SI%3D&reserved=0>
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Langcom mailing list
Langcom@lists.wikimedia.org
https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flangcom&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ca0057ca0c90d4b6bf7dd08d5f52edf71%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636684504018662744&sdata=2HTf7jxe0godookY3op5m%2FNXHRTnLr5cf7%2FyCms8n%2Fs%3D&reserved=0
------------------------------
End of Langcom Digest, Vol 58, Issue 16
***************************************