Pardon me for intervening in your proceedings, but Byzantine Koine Greek has always been
spoken in the Greek Orthodox church in liturgy and admin and documents can be found in
Greek that are from many centuries later as well and it also has this history of
innovation. It really isn't a different case between Greek and Latin. Also both
languages are constantly being used for creating new words in English and other languages,
particularly when it comes to science related terms. Furthermore, there is use of ancient
Greek in modern contexts too, e.g. an up to date news website in ancient Greek at
[
http://www.akwn.net/ ](http://www.akwn.net/) that has been going for 10+ years, or the
Harry potter translation at
https://www.amazon.com/Harry-Potter-Philosophers-Ancient-Edition/dp/1582348…, examples
which showcase that the language can certainly be used for creating new material.
Best regards,
George T.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Langcom] Lingua Franca Nova
Local Time: February 7, 2017 5:36 AM
UTC Time: February 7, 2017 5:36 AM
From: gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com
To: Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee <langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
Hoi,
The point of teaching GRC is to help understand the old documents in GRC. As it is not a
living language the point is that students learn it as it was. Innovation is therefore
counter to the objective of teaching the language. Compare this to Latin; the same applies
but it has always been spoken / used in the Roman Catholic church so it is a language
where documents can be found in Latin that are from many later centuries and it does have
this history of innovation.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 3 February 2017 at 18:23, Jan van Steenbergen <ijzeren.jan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
The issue is that grc developped over time and
consequently what standard should be followed?
There are plenty of languages with Wikipedias that do not have a single written standard.
For example:
* Silesian has two or three different orthographies, all of which can be used (in other
words, it's the author who decides which orthography an article is in).
* Norman has four different dialects, all of which can be used. Articles are also
categorised by the dialects they are written in.
* Rusyn has multiple dialects as well, but AFAIK they try to stick to the dialect used in
Slovakia.
* Some languages (like Serbo-Croat) can be written in multiple alphabets and have special
software for switching between them.
* If I recall correctly, I have seen cases of the same article having multiple versions in
one Wikipedia.
In other words, all kinds of possibilities. My guess is that in the case of grc it will be
Attic Greek for 99%, but if there will be a few articles in Doric or Koine, then I'd
say that would be an enrichment.
Cheers,
Jan
2017-02-02 21:52 GMT+01:00 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>om>:
Hoi,
The issue is that grc developped over time and consequently what standard should be
followed?
Thanks,
GerardM
Op do 2 feb. 2017 om 15:52 schreef MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com>
Shouldn't we, when we accept this line of argument, also accept Ancient Greek (grc)?
2017-02-02 12:34 GMT+01:00 Oliver Stegen <oliver_stegen(a)sil.org>rg>:
Hi,
I found Jan's exposition most helpful and actually convincing - thanks!
In response, I am no longer opposed to make lfn eligible. Go ahead! (And may it thrive.)
Oliver
On 02-Feb-17 10:37, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi,
I like the argument put forward by Jan and Michael. Personally I do not mind when people
are busy with knowledge in any language and we do know that some say that the WMF is in
the business of education.. Surely people get educated in this way.
The problem is in two parts. How do we prevent an environment that is out of control ...
(This is not specific to a conlang) and two, what does it take to prevent death by lack of
attention in the future.
The first is not really a problem we have a precedent whereby a project can be closed. The
second does not need to be a problem when there is attention for its quality (also
automated).
So I am rather positive to allow for a change of heart.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 1 February 2017 at 12:57, Jan van Steenbergen <ijzeren.jan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I'm not a member of the Langcom, but I've been subscribed to this mailing list for
quite a while now. Since my primary field of interest is constructed languages, let me
tell you why I am inclined to support this request. Mind, I am in no way involved with LFN
itself.
My point of view is that there is only one criterion that should really matter for
allowing a project to exist, namely the question: is it sustainable?
At present, we have Wikipedias in seven constructed languages: Esperanto, Volapük, Ido,
Interlingua, Interlingue (Occidental), Novial and Lojban. Of these, only Esperanto has
native speakers, albeit an extremely low number compared to virtually all ethnic languages
with a Wikipedia. Yet, the project is thriving. With >236,000 articles it is #32 on the
list, which is more than Wikipedias in for example Greek, Danish, Bulgarian and Hindi. Ido
and Interlingua (#98 and #109) are doing fine as well, in spite of the fact that both
languages have no native speakers and less than a thousand users. The number of Volapük
users is not more than a few dozens, but the "Vükiped" is doing reasonably well
anyway. Even Interlingue seems to manage somehow, although its number of users (I always
avoid the word "speakers" in the case of constructed languages) is probably less
than ten.
The only project that IMO has become a failure is Novial. Currently it has 1,644 articles.
About 50 of them have some real critical mass, perhaps another 200 are more than just one
or two lines of text, tables and infoboxes. After its foundation it had a few
enthusiastic, active users, but they all seem to have vanished a long time ago. Since 2011
practically nothing has been happening over there. New articles still appear every once in
a while, but most of these are the work of people who don't even know the language and
just copy info from other articles, giving articles whose sole content is: "George
Clooney is an American actor".
Wikipedia projects in three other constructed languages have been closed in the past, for
different reasons: Siberian because it turned out a hoax, Toki Poni because it is a
minimalistic language with just ±120 words, Klingon because it is a work of fiction with a
vocabulary too small for creating a viable project in it. For the same reason, Quenya and
Sindarin are not suitable either.
Anyway, compare all this to Wikipedias in African languages, for example Oromo: a major
language with 60 million speakers, but only 726 articles, most of which are oneliners like
"Germany is a country in Europe" or even empty. Where's the educational
value in that?
Speaking about educational value, I think this boils down to two things: communicating
valuable content, and working with the language itself.
When it comes to perusing Wikipedia because one is looking for info, a vast majority of
the projects we have are quite unnecessary. Speakers of Bavarian, Luxemburgish,
Rhaeto-Romance, Belarusian, Bashkir or Pennsylvania German won't be looking for
information in their native language, they will look for info where they can find it, and
in a language they speak fluently, i.e. in German, Russian, English etc. Wikipedias in
languages like that serve an entirely different purpose: they offer a platform for
generating content in a particular language, for practicing it, developing it, showcasing
it. In other words, these projects are there for the sake of the language itself rather
than the information presented in it.
And in this respect, numbers of native speakers are completely irrelevant. Latin has no
native speakers, but its Wikipedia is still a success. What really matters, in other
words, is whether there are people willing to write in it and read in it.
LFN is of more recent date than the other auxlang projects, but remarkably vivid
nonetheless. I don't know if it really has 100 active users; numbers like that are
notoriously difficult to verify, and the only persons who really have an idea about these
figures are the same ones who have a vested interest in exaggerating them. But it is clear
that there is a large number of people involved in it anyway, enough to generate quite
some content. Of course, nobody knows what will happen when the author of the languages
stops being involved with the language for whatever reason: it might go down the same road
as Novial, but that would be a worst case scenario. In any case, the LFN wiki at Wikia
(
http://lfn.wikia.com/wiki/Paje_xef) has 3,774 pages at present, and keeps growing. Quite
a lot of these pages are substantial articles, some of them having even more content than
their equivalents in the major European languages. Obviously, not all pages could be moved
to a Wikipedia in LFN, as they also contain translations of poetry and prose, but still,
even at the very start this Wikipedia would be at a higher level than those in
Interlingue, Novial, Volapük and Lojban. Not only in terms of numbers, but also in terms
of substance and quality. So why not give it a chance?
Best regards,
Jan van Steenbergen (User:IJzeren Jan)
2017-02-01 10:15 GMT+01:00 Milos Rancic <millosh(a)gmail.com>om>:
On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 7:44 AM, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> wrote:
We had in the past really well functioning languages
that were also shifted
to Wikia. It is all part and parcel of the original idea of the policy to
prevent the easy creation of new projects. This was needed because at the
time there was a groundswell of sentiment to prevent new projects all
together.
When one member of the committee says "NO", it will not happen. Wen doubts
are raised it is not no. So please be clear what your intentions are.
True. Here is my more precise position.
My basic position is on the Amir's line: So weak against ("Wikia
should be good enough") that I don't want to be the one who blocks it.
However, for me it *is* mandatory to have a good reasoning in favor.
That's why I asked Michael to make one. I see that as mandatory
because of the future request.
There is a tiny line, invisible from both sides, which differs
relevant institutions from irrelevant ones. LangCom exists to keep
Wikimedia relevant institution in relation to the languages. I would
define relevancy as.
We are still on the relevant side and LFN is one of the possible lines
and we need to make a good decision here. And I have to say that what
Amir's said about LFN doesn't sound promising at the moment.
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