Thank you Gerard, it is important to know, as you say, that the “policies are clear, the
arguments why have not been refuted” - this is precisely what I would like to check.
Given that the proposal we have written at the RFC is a very narrow and limited change to
eligibility, it seems to me that it is quite possible that you may weigh the arguments
differently. I must emphasise that nobody wants to open the floodgates to irrelevant
projects. As a result, we think that the line has been drawn a little too tightly, and
needs a little more flexibility, in particular to permit consideration of well supported
languages such as Ancient Greek.
I have been able to find the proposed policy as drafted in 2007, which contain a lot of
discussion of other issues, but the draft allowed ancient languages, so I have been unable
to find the discussions that led up to the change.
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_committee/Archives/Policy#GerardM-Pathoschild>
I can also find the change on the Language proposal policy page itself:
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Language_proposal_policy&oldid=716535>
15:37, 21 October 2007
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Language_proposal_policy&oldid=716535>
Pathoschild <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pathoschild> talk
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Pathoschild> contribs
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Pathoschild> 9,845 bytes
+73 →Frequently asked questions
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_proposal_policy#Frequently_asked_questions>:
updated for policy change
However, I cannot find the reasoning. I am guessing that the reasoning was done on email
and might not be available.
I have also found two RFCs relating to the policy, but neither had a substantive
discussion or analysis. These are listed here:
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Start_allowing_ancient_languages/Appendix:_Details_for_former_relevant_RFCs>
As a further item, I wonder if it is worth doing an assessment of the ancient languages
that have passed through, to assess their impact. This may take a little while, but again
could be useful to assess the current policy, especially if no such assessment has been
done. I will start by seeing what we can gather from stats, but a qualititative assessment
may also help; after all we cannot see into the experience of these language projects
ourselves. I would of course be very willing to help with this, perhaps with a member of
the committee to ensure what is collected is useful.
On 8 Sep 2021, at 13:31, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hoi,
What difference does it make. The policies are clear, the arguments why have not been
refuted. The discussions have been followed over time by committee members..
Thanks,
GerardM
On Wed, 8 Sept 2021 at 14:04, Jim Killock <jim(a)killock.org.uk
<mailto:jim@killock.org.uk>> wrote:
Do you happen to know when the previous RFC’s were brought forward? it ould be helpful
for me to reference these discussions on the current RFC alongside any information about
the reasons they were rejected.
On 8 Sep 2021, at 06:45, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com <mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hoi,
The arguments inherent in the policy are not affected by the "fear mongering"
by some. At the same time in the later suggestions there is nothing new.
From my perspective there is no reason to revisit the criteria for a new Wikipedia.
Thanks,
GerardM
On Wed, 8 Sept 2021 at 02:00, Phake Nick <c933103(a)gmail.com
<mailto:c933103@gmail.com>> wrote:
The RFC in past have suffered from fear-mongering by some users on multiple Wikiprojects
both internally on sites like Chinese Wikipedia and Chinese Wikisource and then also via
some other channels, describing the RFC as a conspiracy to enable the creation of a
Literal Chinese Wikisource and to tear apart Chinese Wikimedian communities, despite later
clarification that the RFC isn't intended to alter the circumstances around Wikisource
since the current language policy already allow creation of Wikisource in ancient
languages, yet such misunderstanding generated a lot of unnecessary debate inside the
page.
在 2021年9月7日週二 18:44,MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com
<mailto:mfwarburg@googlemail.com>> 寫道:
News from this RFC. The ultra-long discussion was archived by this user in favour of his
new proposal, which already generated much text again.
Am Di., 7. Sept. 2021 um 12:41 Uhr schrieb Jim Killock <jim(a)killock.org.uk
<mailto:jim@killock.org.uk>>:
Dear LangCom,
I am a sometime contributor to Latin Wikipedia, Latin Wikisource, and Latin Wikibooks. I
feel that my time is well spent doing this, and belong to a community of people who write
and use spoken Latin, although my own Latin is still intermediate at this point. However,
I can appreciate that Latin takes up a large part of many people’s lives, and thus I
suspect this is true for some other ancient languages, which are, in the end, still
employed and varifiably so. Thus I am sympathetic to the claims made that some other
ancient languages may also have communities in a similar position.
You may have seen that some users have asked for the policy that makes an auto0matic
refusal for ‘ancient and historic languages’ to be revisited
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Start_allowing_ancient_languages#Discussion>.
After checking through the rules and procedures, it seems this is something you as a
committee need to decide, rather than being a matter of general debate, so I am emailing
you to ask you to consider revising the policy, in a manner which allows a little more
flexibility for languages which are historic, learnt, but in use.
I think there is some need to do this, as can be seen from your archives, which show that
it is hard to achi9eve a consistent approach while constructed alnguages with a body of
current usage are allowed, but an ancient language with similar levels of fluent usage, is
not allowed. This I note has been a matter of discussion relating to Ancient Greek, for
which a discussion is still open.
I drafted a proposal that would try to create consistency between the constructed and
ancient language situation, while recognising that most historic languages should not
normally qualify for inclusion. Nevertheless, in some important exceptions, where there is
a credibly large enough number of language users, with sufficient skill, and attestable
external usage of that language,, these languages could be allowed without opening the
floodgates, with a well-crated policy.
I would also like the committee to note that I would be happy to help frame this policy
in a sensible way, if that is of interest.
Thank you for your time,
Jim
Definition of ancient or historic language[edit
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_comment/Start_allowing_ancient_languages&action=edit§ion=12>]
For Wikimedia projects' purposes, an ancient or historic language is one which
Was used historically and has an extant corpus of works;
Is typically acquired by formal learning;
Is typically fixed in form, eg by grammar rules developed and documented while the
language was in common usage;
May or may not not be used in modern linguistic domains, such as: trade; education;
academic discourse; music; poetry; religious discourse; etc.
Qualification of an ancient or historic language for a Wiki project[edit
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_comment/Start_allowing_ancient_languages&action=edit§ion=13>]
The same basic eligibility criteria should apply in a similar but somewhat stricter
manner than artificial languages, recognising that acquisition is likely to be harder than
is typical for constructed languages, but also that acquisition may be more common and
resources more developed; and also that practical usage is likely to be lower than for
many contemporary natively-acquired languages.
Therefore I propose that:
Wikis are allowed in ancient or historical languages despite having no native speakers;
although these should be on a wiki for the most widely used form of the language, when
possible;
There must be evidence of a significant potential readership and evidence of a
significant body of competent potential contributors; for instance at least thousands of
people trained in writing the language;
There should be a significant historical corpus and usage for modern authors to draw
upon, for instance, a large volume of extant texts or a large volume of recordings,
sufficient to understand the idiom as well as the grammar of the language; whether
generated as an auxiliary language, domain specific language or a native language;
The language must have a reasonable degree of contemporary usage as determined by
discussion. (Some recognition criteria include, but are not limited to: independently
proved number of speakers or writers, use as an auxiliary or domain-specific language
outside of online communities created solely for the purpose, usage outside of Wikimedia,
publication of works in the language for general sale, publication of academic papers in
the language, availability of courses or training which aim at fluent compositional or
oral usage.)
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