Hoi,
The problem is how to deal with the NPOV..
Thanks,
GerardM
On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 at 16:08, Steven White <koala19890(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
Well, as I have said many times, the current rule as
written is
problematic, and we have no business rejecting Montenegrin at this point.
Please understand, again, that I don't object to the rule in principle. If
we were starting today with a situation where there were no Serbo-Croatian
projects existing (or no Punjabi projects existing), we might well try to
say, "You know what? There's only going to be one, and you're all going to
have to get along, and this needs to be irrespective of political
perspective."
But at this point, it doesn't work in either situation, for several
reasons:
1. There are long-existing communities already. They each already have
a culture, rules, and perspectives.
2. Based on a different, very firm WMF policy, "central authority" is
almost never allowed to intervene on individual projects to "force" them to
be more accommodating to the political and/or cultural minorities that
could choose to participate.
3. The policy, as written, says *"The committee does not consider
political differences, since the Wikimedia Foundation's goal is to give
every single person free, unbiased access to the sum of all human
knowledge, rather than information from the viewpoint of individual
political communities."* You have to read the whole sentence there,
not just the first phrase. By "not consider[ing]" political differences,
the committee in fact perpetuates the fact that *existing* projects
may already have "the viewpoint of individual political communities". In
these cases, people in minority communities are tremendously disadvantaged
in that they have to overcome (possibly) hostile political/cultural
viewpoints—and may well not be able to do so.
It seems to me that there is only one way to operate this rule exactly as
it is already written: "Central authority" must have the power to intervene
on certain projects, and to establish and enforce rules that guarantee the
neutrality that every project is supposed to have anyway. If that's not
going to happen—and I'm pretty sure it's not, for a whole lot of
reasons—then we need to allow new projects where (a) there is a language
code, and (b) there are going to be significant political and cultural
barriers in integrating minority communities into existing projects.
Steven
Sent from Outlook <http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
------------------------------
*From:* Langcom <langcom-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org> on behalf of
MF-Warburg <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, October 27, 2019 11:05 AM
*To:* Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee <langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org
*Subject:* Re: [Langcom] Wikipedia in
Saraiki
Thanks for the info. So, what can we do?
If we boldly reject requests for new Serbo-Croatian language/dialect
Wikipedias and say the existing ones wouldn't be allowed today, isn't this
case the same?
Satdeep Gill <satdeepgill(a)gmail.com> schrieb am Mo., 21. Okt. 2019, 16:12:
It's not clear at all. Depends upon who you ask. It's a typical
language-dialect problem.
I do know that, the Saraiki community in Pakistan has also been demanding
a separate Saraikistan. So, for the community it's pretty much a separate
language.
If you are asking my opinion then even Punjabi and Western Punjabi
Wikipedias should have been one Wikipedia with two scripts (maybe a third
script as well). Even Hindi-Urdu for that matter. It's always the
socio-political reasons.
As per Wikipedia:
*Saraiki was considered a dialect of Punjabi
<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPunjabi_dialects&data=02%7C01%7C%7C068e7dc2150941c9230e08d75aef1ee4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637077855372208727&sdata=bNKrEABp7UtyVVq6suOmBTaBWCv6foUQYvyOA%2FFg24c%3D&reserved=0>
by most British colonial
<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBritish_Raj&data=02%7C01%7C%7C068e7dc2150941c9230e08d75aef1ee4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637077855372218732&sdata=c66RdPKBtrF3Emn%2F6CYl5S7pcqoAuStFpPG7XB6VmAU%3D&reserved=0>
administrators,[29]
<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSaraiki_language%23cite_note-FOOTNOTERahman1996173-32&data=02%7C01%7C%7C068e7dc2150941c9230e08d75aef1ee4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637077855372218732&sdata=aA5novZh957MHcmbqPXkeTwbykdW5HLKif0N9XVT6nw%3D&reserved=0>
and is still seen as such by many Punjabis
<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPunjabis&data=02%7C01%7C%7C068e7dc2150941c9230e08d75aef1ee4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637077855372228737&sdata=kFQxmWqwm0qnQAjJbtH6V2cCCXCzeu3PrYK49MUbst4%3D&reserved=0>.[30]
<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSaraiki_language%23cite_note-FOOTNOTEShackle2014a-33&data=02%7C01%7C%7C068e7dc2150941c9230e08d75aef1ee4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637077855372228737&sdata=NuAn6n0SWGtSzgFX1tim%2FcEGQfAkQiy2FAUb7Zf2aPY%3D&reserved=0>
Saraikis, however, consider it a language in its own right[31]
<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSaraiki_language%23cite_note-34&data=02%7C01%7C%7C068e7dc2150941c9230e08d75aef1ee4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637077855372238746&sdata=C2mw5YlDLd7zCh%2BaNPXMqNDIX1MhL9%2BMkyjDLNvI1Eo%3D&reserved=0>
and see the use of the term "dialect" as stigmatising
<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSocial_stigma&data=02%7C01%7C%7C068e7dc2150941c9230e08d75aef1ee4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637077855372238746&sdata=3QIHc8AuksXwi8sN0Abv1gGZmA1WiIXmVvBGVLPonfU%3D&reserved=0>.[32]
<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSaraiki_language%23cite_note-FOOTNOTERahman1996175-35&data=02%7C01%7C%7C068e7dc2150941c9230e08d75aef1ee4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637077855372248756&sdata=maRBbWYHsAF1TM7skiFG%2BXV2ZkE6KvydnYqVrp1VFfU%3D&reserved=0>
A language movement was started in the 1960s to standardise a script and
promote the language.[20]
<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSaraiki_language%23cite_note-FOOTNOTEShackle1977-22&data=02%7C01%7C%7C068e7dc2150941c9230e08d75aef1ee4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637077855372248756&sdata=0qmkxF9J8wJonpGAYSFUBnQ%2BbYVH8Q9%2B0Dr%2BFCoyf5o%3D&reserved=0>[33]
<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSaraiki_language%23cite_note-FOOTNOTERahman1997838-36&data=02%7C01%7C%7C068e7dc2150941c9230e08d75aef1ee4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637077855372258761&sdata=BuXlT8suNibyi%2F0sHh39DzCH6IBqEISRgiZxRCuM6IA%3D&reserved=0>
*
Best
Satdeep
On Mon, 21 Oct, 2019, 9:20 AM MF-Warburg, <mfwarburg(a)googlemail.com>
wrote:
While there may be a close similarity to Western
Punjabi, I agree with
Steven's point that the right time to bring that issue up
would have been
when we decided whether to mark the language as eligible. We *did* mark
it as eligible (by Satdeep just over 2 years ago), and that has to mean
something. To walk back on that now, after volunteers have spent hundreds
and hundreds of hours working on it, is just not ok.
I disagree with this notion.
One of the tasks of the Language Committee is precisely to prevent new
"Serbo-Croation" cases from happening. It has been suggested that this
might be such a case here. So let us please discuss this issue and clear it
up. I have done some reading and it seems to me that there might be enough
differences between Saraiki and Western Punjabi anyway. But Satdeep brought
up that that might not be the case, and on the request page there are also
people who says that it's not a separate language (while others, of course,
say the opposite).
I just would like this to be clarified in order not to have a situation in
several years where everyone acknowledges that it is most unfortunate that
there are several wikis...
(It is also a matter of fact that languages get marked as eligible all the
time without a discussion, just because the majority of cases don't turn
out to be problematic at all. I looked at the archives and saw that back
then, Satdeep said on this list "There is some controversy regarding this
but according to my analysis, it should be eligible." - That does not
directly contradict his statement "Western Punjabi and Saraiki are pretty
similar and my personal view is that this should be accommodated on one
Wikipedia but the sociology-political situation in Pakistan calls for a
separate Wikipedia for Saraiki." from 8 October, but I still would *love *to
have the whole thing clarified as requested on 16 Oct.
Back in 2017, Oliver Stegen said in reply to the mentioned mail: "Any
controversies may come to ight and be discussed accordingly during the
verification phase which has started now." and I agree with this; a random
marking as eligible should not prevent a discussion about what the
situation really is.)
[Mails from 29 + 30 August 2017]
Am So., 20. Okt. 2019 um 05:30 Uhr schrieb Jon Harald Søby <
jhsoby(a)gmail.com>gt;:
I finally heard back from the first person [1] I emailed now, and he
basically echoed what Satdeep said: All pages he checked, except the one I
mentioned in the first email, are in Saraiki.
While there may be a close similarity to Western Punjabi, I agree with
Steven's point that the right time to bring that issue up would have been
when we decided whether to mark the language as eligible. We *did* mark
it as eligible (by Satdeep just over 2 years ago), and that has to mean
something. To walk back on that now, after volunteers have spent hundreds
and hundreds of hours working on it, is just not ok.
Therefore I would like to officially propose that we approve the Saraiki
Wikipedia, as they meet all of our criteria.
[1] I'll be happy to disclose his name and details on the private list if
anyone on the committee wants me to, but I don't want to do so here on the
public list since I never brought that up with him.
ons. 16. okt. 2019 kl. 18:04 skrev Jon Harald Søby <jhsoby(a)gmail.com>om>:
I have not gotten a reply yet. Yesterday I emailed to more people from
Pakistani universities with Saraiki departments, but no reply from any if
them yet either.
ons. 16. okt. 2019, 16:29 skrev Steven White <koala19890(a)hotmail.com>om>:
Have we heard from the expert yet?
On a related subject: Do we have any Wiktionary experts here? Saraiki
Wiktionary is also now approvable in theory (assuming that the language
issue on the Wikipedia clears). My concern about the Saraiki Wiktionary is
only that compared to a lot of Wiktionary projects, this one appears pretty
basic to me: just a straight Saraiki dictionary, with little in the way of
bells and whistles (pronunciation, translations to other languages, etc.).
But that's just based on the gross appearance of pages, as I do not read
Saraiki (or any other language written in Perso-Arabic script). So Satdeep
and anyone else: Does the content look ok? Are there greater expectations
of what a Wiktionary should contain—expectations we have not communicated,
I will add—or is this project appropriate and acceptable?
Steven
Sent from Outlook
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------------------------------
*From:* Langcom <langcom-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org> on behalf of Jon
Harald Søby <jhsoby(a)gmail.com>
*Sent:* Thursday, October 10, 2019 3:38 PM
*To:* Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee <langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org
*Subject:* Re: [Langcom] Wikipedia in
Saraiki
I am still waiting to hear back from the expert. If he says the rest of
the pages look fine, then I think we can move forward – Steven makes some
good points as usual.
tor. 10. okt. 2019 kl. 21:03 skrev Gerard Meijssen <
gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com>gt;:
Hoi,
The final stage is that we verify if the language it is said to be. When
we find it is not or are not certain we have all the room to seek another
authority to move forward. At this stage it becomes confusing and I am not
convinced at all that we should.
Thanks,
GerardM
On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 at 19:21, Steven White <koala19890(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
This is effectively the same problem as we saw in the discussion of
Montenegrin Wikipedia—although since all but two of us are from Europe,
North America or Israel, we feel more confident making calls in a case like
Montenegrin than we do here. (And, candidly, there is less chance in the
Montenegrin case of being accused of racism/Euro-centrism, even if that
accusation would be totally without merit in this case.)
But as I said back then, the rule as currently written is fine when the
language area starts with a clean slate. If there were no Western Punjabi
Wikipedia now, we could reasonably try to get a single project to try to
accommodate both Western Punjabi and Saraiki. (Whether that effort would be
successful is a different question, but we could try.) However, I take
Satdeep's comment below to indicate that there would be serious problems
trying to integrate a new Saraiki-language community into a ten-year old
Western Punjabi-language community, and that he recommends against it,
based on the current "facts on the ground". Besides, to some extent the
time to say "no" has passed, since Satdeep marked the project as
"eligible"
in 2017. So I think we need to move forward with this.
Steven
Sent from Outlook
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------------------------------
*From:* Langcom <langcom-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org> on behalf of Jon
Harald Søby <jhsoby(a)gmail.com>
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 9, 2019 4:44 AM
*To:* Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee <langcom(a)lists.wikimedia.org
*Subject:* Re: [Langcom] Wikipedia in
Saraiki
...
As for the Western Punjabi/Saraiki issue, I don't know enough about that
to have any opinion either way.
tir. 8. okt. 2019 kl. 19:00 skrev Satdeep Gill <satdeepgill(a)gmail.com>om>:
...
P.S. Western Punjabi and Saraiki are pretty similar and my personal view
is that this should be accommodated on one Wikipedia but the
sociology-political situation in Pakistan calls for a separate Wikipedia
for Saraiki.
Regards
Satdeep Gill
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